is PV3D dead ?

[Guillaume Amringer]

Last commits I see in the SVN date back to april... I am wondering if the
project is dead or if we will see other improvements in the future.


*Guillaume Amringer*

[Taha Khan]

Hope PVX adopts the new 3d api by Flash. No news from the PV3D team yet,
while Away 3D and Alternativa 3D are blowing me away with their demos.

Post by Guillaume Amringer
Last commits I see in the SVN date back to april... I am wondering if the
project is dead or if we will see other improvements in the future.
*Guillaume Amringer*
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[Makc]

Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost a year.

[John Grden]

In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed. We stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided a
better experience over what we already had. There were no speed increases
or anything magical. Just an API.

Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.

So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit. That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer to
the moral.

I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them. They're about 5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.

I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke. Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you step
out and experience something else. So when I hear about "incredible demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*? It's pointless. It's like they're all dealing with a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo, but
at the end of the day, guess what?! it's still a freakin' volkswagon. You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.

If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it. It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.

Post by Makc
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost a year.
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[John Grden]

btw, that's a 1st Gen iPhone...

Post by John Grden
In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed. We stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided a
better experience over what we already had. There were no speed increases
or anything magical. Just an API.
Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit. That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer to
the moral.
I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them. They're about 5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke. Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you step
out and experience something else. So when I hear about "incredible demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*? It's pointless. It's like they're all dealing with a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo, but
at the end of the day, guess what?! it's still a freakin' volkswagon. You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.
If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it. It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.

Post by Makc
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost a year.
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[tomsamson]

haha, zing :-)
Its funny, i remember how i said things in that vein some years ago and was looked at as weird dude back then, sorta like as if i had betrayed the flash community i was part of for so long just because i wanted to push for Adobe finally waking up.

With Adobe though, iŽm sorta glad i havenŽt worked on pv3d or one of the other 3D engines who did now not get early access to the next upcoming playersŽfeatures, else i would have pissed off a lot for years long doing the work Adobe should have done and then its again that Adobe ploy where some get earlier access than even beta testers, hence leading to quite unfair market chance situation.
Next to that i feel like its too little too late from Adobe side, it sounds like they add some new apis but no engine, framework or ide tools to use it and also none of the "old" api, lamguage and in ide made stuff gets accelerated.
Weak sauce to me.

Just as john said, the demos are still impressive when one is stuck in flash only world view, but when one just looks a tid bit beyond that edge and sees things like as John again rightfully said what can be run on an iPhone when using other technologies.. man.

Bottomline:
Meanwhile i donŽt have the stance anymore to try and get flash to do things its not made for or try to convince Adobe what they should implement in flash, its not worth it cause they will likely do something totally different anyway, best just use whatŽs a good choice for a particular use case.
For some things thatŽs still flash, for others its unity and for again other things it could be again something different.
PV3D were the en vogue thing loved and hyped by Adobe etc for a while, now its Alternativa.
The guys can enjoy their time in the spotlight but expect it to be limited and at the end of the day, it would probably have been better spent doing nice stuff with something like unity rather than trying to cook such an engine in flash which in either case will still lead to way worse results on the same box.

Post by John Grden
btw, that's a 1st Gen iPhone...
In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed. We stopped because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided a better experience over what we already had. There were no speed increases or anything magical. Just an API.
Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages PB and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the sake of a new api that didn't give us any benefit. That and being disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer to the moral.
I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them. They're about 5-7yrs ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D. Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's more on an IPHONE with Unity3D than in a browser with flash. It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D flash - it's a joke. Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you step out and experience something else. So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*? It's pointless. It's like they're all dealing with a volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo, but at the end of the day, guess what?! it's still a freakin' volkswagon. You can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a volkswagon.
If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it. It may not have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now, but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost a year.
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[n***@public.gmane.org]

"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*? It's
pointless."

Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support. While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc. If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.

They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.

Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.

If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.

Post by John Grden
In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed. We stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided a
better experience over what we already had. There were no speed increases
or anything magical. Just an API.
Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit. That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer to
the moral.
I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them. They're about 5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke. Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you step
out and experience something else. So when I hear about "incredible demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*? It's pointless. It's like they're all dealing with a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo, but
at the end of the day, guess what?! it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.
If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it. It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.

Post by Makc
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
a
year.
_______________________________________________
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http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org

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[tomsamson]

Well, JohnŽs point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other technologies when compared to various other things.

Post by n***@public.gmane.org
"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*? It's
pointless."
Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support. While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc. If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.
They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.
Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.
If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.

Post by John Grden
In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed. We stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided a
better experience over what we already had. There were no speed increases
or anything magical. Just an API.
Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit. That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer to
the moral.
I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them. They're about 5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke. Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you step
out and experience something else. So when I hear about "incredible demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*? It's pointless. It's like they're all dealing with a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo, but
at the end of the day, guess what?! it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.
If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it. It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.

Post by Makc
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
a
year.
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[Cédric Muller]

This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)

If anyone missed these:

http://jpauclair.net/2010/10/27/molehill/

http://www.flashrealtime.com/max-racer-multiplayer/

Cedric

Post by tomsamson
Well, JohnŽs point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other technologies when compared to various other things.

Post by n***@public.gmane.org
"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*? It's
pointless."
Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support. While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc. If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.
They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.
Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.
If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.

Post by John Grden
In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed. We stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided a
better experience over what we already had. There were no speed increases
or anything magical. Just an API.
Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit. That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer to
the moral.
I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them. They're about 5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke. Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you step
out and experience something else. So when I hear about "incredible demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*? It's pointless. It's like they're all dealing with a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo, but
at the end of the day, guess what?! it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.
If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it. It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.

Post by Makc
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
a
year.
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[tomsamson]

Dunno about the others, but all i said totally applies to the videos showing the molehill demos and all info stated by Adobe on the stuff.
Adobe seems to not be a lot into integrating the new api for usage in visual workflow in the ide, nor does it seem to be integrated with any of the old languages/ apis, so old stuff still runs slow as always.
And yeah, even the nicest demos shown there are still years behind what was doable in unity etc several years ago and is not close to being a match for what other technologies allow doing now.
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection, no skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving besides the car mostly.
Compare it to unreal citadel demo running on iPad to get what other middleware is capable of even on way less powerful machines.
Not even to mention that it isnŽt cross platform as in runs like that on anything besides mac/ pc anytime soon and even for those it will probably not be finalized and nicely usable for at least a year and then.
For example propper mobile support is touted so long by Adobe as if it was already live in action anywhere.
How many Android devices can run flash right now and how many of those in propper usable performance besides for the most basic 2D content?
IŽm also wondering what Adobe thinks why people should buy Flash IDE anymore if it doesnŽt offer any visual editing support for most things introduced api side since flash 7.
Nice people like the alternative guys create engines and frameworks "for them" but yeah..

Post by Cédric Muller
This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)
http://jpauclair.net/2010/10/27/molehill/
http://youtu.be/szaXvTsoeVs
http://www.flashrealtime.com/max-racer-multiplayer/
http://youtu.be/tgwi0lWgX8w
Cedric

Post by tomsamson
Well, JohnŽs point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other technologies when compared to various other things.

Post by n***@public.gmane.org
"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*? It's
pointless."
Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support. While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc. If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.
They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.
Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.
If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.

Post by John Grden
In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed. We stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided a
better experience over what we already had. There were no speed increases
or anything magical. Just an API.
Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit. That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer to
the moral.
I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them. They're about 5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke. Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you step
out and experience something else. So when I hear about "incredible demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*? It's pointless. It's like they're all dealing with a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo, but
at the end of the day, guess what?! it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.
If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it. It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.

Post by Makc
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
a
year.
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[Stig Kristiansen]

If what is beeing said about Molehill is true, it is basically just an
actionscript API layer above DirectX and OpenGL below. Everything you
mention should be easily doable with the right fragment and vertex shaders.

In my opinion the best selling point for Flash/Molehill is that it will
probably reach +90% user penetrations sometime in 2012. Unity or WebGL?
Do not think so.

Of course Unity may have better tools available and be a nicer and
proven environment for making online games. I would not know, games are
not my market.

As always it will end up with the old saying, use the right tool for the
right job. For some jobs that would be Unity, for other it might be
Flash/Molehill.

Post by tomsamson
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection,
no skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving
besides the car mostly.

[Ross Sclafani]

you so sure about this?

with the macbook air announcement,

will the flash web plugin going to be as built in as we've grown accustomed?


Ross P. Sclafani
design / technology / creative

http://ross.sclafani.net
http://www.twitter.com/rosssclafani
[phone]



If you don't have a plan B, you don't have a plan.

Post by Stig Kristiansen
+90% user penetrations sometime in 2012

[Stig Kristiansen]

Show me someone who is sure about anything in our industry and I will
show you a fool. ;-)

But those reasons you gave is the reason I wrote +90% and not +95% ;-)

Flash is very entrenched in the web, and all those 2D web pages using it
are not going away anytime soon. It also have a very easy one click
update path, I see no compelling reason a new version should not spread
like wildfire like the most recent versions has.

But sure? Hell, no. I've been with this business far to long to be sure
about anything ;-)

Someone might come up with a killer disruptive technology next year that
changes the equation, but frankly I do not think the Macbook Air is that
technology, although it looks very nice :-)

Post by Ross Sclafani
you so sure about this?
with the macbook air announcement,
will the flash web plugin going to be as built in as we've grown accustomed?
Ross P. Sclafani
design / technology / creative
http://ross.sclafani.net
http://www.twitter.com/rosssclafani
[phone]
If you don't have a plan B, you don't have a plan.

Post by Stig Kristiansen
+90% user penetrations sometime in 2012

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[Ross Sclafani]

:D so this is what happens when you throw gasoline on embers.

glad to know this list is still being monitored by the same bright minds that started it and made it the original home for flash3D.

i might just have to log into the irc channel and stir it up in there, too.

xo

Ross P. Sclafani
design / technology / creative

http://ross.sclafani.net
http://www.twitter.com/rosssclafani
[phone]



If you don't have a plan B, you don't have a plan.

[John Grden]

yeah I think you're saying the right thing, and I'm sure it plays out where
updating / adoption does very well.

But one thing we have to be careful of is keeping the comparison on target.
We're matching up Flash3D and it's gaming ability against Unity3D. When
you keep topic pure, there is a much different reality in store.

If you're trying to compare Unity to flash's uses - you can't, that's
absurd! Unity is a game development tool - period. So, putting apples to
apples - you have to take your comparisons of player penetration and
probably forget about it *until* adobe comes out with something that:

1) competes at a hardware level - but wait, that's not all!
2) gives 1 api, 1 tool to leverage what they're providing.

I'm not even asking for 3D scene editor (which would make it even more
lopsided toward Unity). I'm simply asking for 1 api to leverage all their
power in flash - just think about what I'm saying here. I'm not even
comparing IDE'S to IDE'S, just 1 api and let's start there. From there,
things *could* get MUCH MUCH better for flash. and I would love to see it
happen personally

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 12:34 PM, Stig Kristiansen

Show me someone who is sure about anything in our industry and I will show
you a fool. ;-)
But those reasons you gave is the reason I wrote +90% and not +95% ;-)
Flash is very entrenched in the web, and all those 2D web pages using it
are not going away anytime soon. It also have a very easy one click update
path, I see no compelling reason a new version should not spread like
wildfire like the most recent versions has.
But sure? Hell, no. I've been with this business far to long to be sure
about anything ;-)
Someone might come up with a killer disruptive technology next year that
changes the equation, but frankly I do not think the Macbook Air is that
technology, although it looks very nice :-)
you so sure about this?
with the macbook air announcement,
will the flash web plugin going to be as built in as we've grown accustomed?
Ross P. Sclafani
design / technology / creative
http://ross.sclafani.net
http://www.twitter.com/rosssclafani
[phone]
If you don't have a plan B, you don't have a plan.
+90% user penetrations sometime in 2012
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[Stig Kristiansen]

Yes, this I agree with completely.

Post by John Grden
yeah I think you're saying the right thing, and I'm sure it plays out
where updating / adoption does very well.
But one thing we have to be careful of is keeping the comparison on
target. We're matching up Flash3D and it's gaming ability against
Unity3D. When you keep topic pure, there is a much different reality
in store.
If you're trying to compare Unity to flash's uses - you can't, that's
absurd! Unity is a game development tool - period. So, putting
apples to apples - you have to take your comparisons of player
penetration and probably forget about it *until* adobe comes out with
1) competes at a hardware level - but wait, that's not all!
2) gives 1 api, 1 tool to leverage what they're providing.
I'm not even asking for 3D scene editor (which would make it even more
lopsided toward Unity). I'm simply asking for 1 api to leverage all
their power in flash - just think about what I'm saying here. I'm not
even comparing IDE'S to IDE'S, just 1 api and let's start there. From
there, things *could* get MUCH MUCH better for flash. and I would
love to see it happen personally
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 12:34 PM, Stig Kristiansen
Show me someone who is sure about anything in our industry and I
will show you a fool. ;-)
But those reasons you gave is the reason I wrote +90% and not +95% ;-)
Flash is very entrenched in the web, and all those 2D web pages
using it are not going away anytime soon. It also have a very
easy one click update path, I see no compelling reason a new
version should not spread like wildfire like the most recent
versions has.
But sure? Hell, no. I've been with this business far to long to be
sure about anything ;-)
Someone might come up with a killer disruptive technology next
year that changes the equation, but frankly I do not think the
Macbook Air is that technology, although it looks very nice :-)

Post by Ross Sclafani
you so sure about this?
with the macbook air announcement,
will the flash web plugin going to be as built in as we've grown accustomed?
Ross P. Sclafani
design / technology / creative
http://ross.sclafani.net
http://www.twitter.com/rosssclafani
[phone]
If you don't have a plan B, you don't have a plan.

Post by Stig Kristiansen
+90% user penetrations sometime in 2012

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[ JPG ]
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[John McCormack]

Post by John Grden
competes at a hardware level

John,

The sticking point seems to be the lack of development on Adobe's part.

What does Unity do, that Adobe should do?

John

[John Grden]

You're fooling yourself if you're going with the penetration argument still.


1. It's not an issue like it used to be
2. Unity's catching up and being adopted (just like flash was) by main
sites and distribution.

Don't believe me? I've been doing Unity3D work for 2yrs straight now. And
we're a company that will do whatever is asked for. But in all
conversations, when you show the client what's doable, and *where* you can
deploy their content beyond the browser, it's not even a discussion any
longer.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Stig Kristiansen

Post by Stig Kristiansen
If what is beeing said about Molehill is true, it is basically just an
actionscript API layer above DirectX and OpenGL below. Everything you
mention should be easily doable with the right fragment and vertex shaders.
In my opinion the best selling point for Flash/Molehill is that it will
probably reach +90% user penetrations sometime in 2012. Unity or WebGL? Do
not think so.
Of course Unity may have better tools available and be a nicer and proven
environment for making online games. I would not know, games are not my
market.
As always it will end up with the old saying, use the right tool for the
right job. For some jobs that would be Unity, for other it might be
Flash/Molehill.

Post by tomsamson
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection, no
skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving besides the
car mostly.

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[Stig Kristiansen]

Well it has been a rather large discussion with some of our major
clients where the user count is in the millions, and for some of them
anything other than Flash was out of the question. It did not matter
what we showed them could be done with other options. Flash or begone.

And no, we are not only doing Flash 3D. In fact I had not ever worked
with Flash until 1,5 year ago but I have worked with 3D for 10 years now
(mostly low level OpenGL and shaders).

Perhaps if we did games or advertisement it would have been an easier sell.

If I am wrong and Unity reaches anything close to the current
penetration of Flash I would of course think that is a good thing, I
like choice.

Post by John Grden
You're fooling yourself if you're going with the penetration argument still.
1. It's not an issue like it used to be
2. Unity's catching up and being adopted (just like flash was) by
main sites and distribution.
Don't believe me? I've been doing Unity3D work for 2yrs straight now.
And we're a company that will do whatever is asked for. But in all
conversations, when you show the client what's doable, and *where* you
can deploy their content beyond the browser, it's not even a
discussion any longer.
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Stig Kristiansen
If what is beeing said about Molehill is true, it is basically
just an actionscript API layer above DirectX and OpenGL below.
Everything you mention should be easily doable with the right
fragment and vertex shaders.
In my opinion the best selling point for Flash/Molehill is that it
will probably reach +90% user penetrations sometime in 2012. Unity
or WebGL? Do not think so.
Of course Unity may have better tools available and be a nicer and
proven environment for making online games. I would not know,
games are not my market.
As always it will end up with the old saying, use the right tool
for the right job. For some jobs that would be Unity, for other it
might be Flash/Molehill.
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment
reflection, no skidmarks, particle effects or anything really
dynamic or moving besides the car mostly.
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[tomsamson]

So, ok, you estimate everything regarding flash to turn out in the best possible way imaginable (being able to use DirectX/ openGL capabilities to the max and it reaching +90% penetration in a year of new plugin version release window, despite things like Apple not bundling flash player with OS updates anymore etc) and the worse possible scenario for unity and webgl etc.
Ok, yes, by that logic flash always wins :-)
I agree with the bottom line of use the right tool for the job, but yeah, regarding flash and seeing how AdobeŽs prophecies for upcoming versions and features held up (or not) in the past, hm, iŽd say donŽt bet on that horse before you examined it for yourself for a week or two. And if you have a related project in view iŽd rather use whatŽs available and working great now rather than wait for something tehoretically coming out in a year or more.

If what is beeing said about Molehill is true, it is basically just an actionscript API layer above DirectX and OpenGL below. Everything you mention should be easily doable with the right fragment and vertex shaders.
In my opinion the best selling point for Flash/Molehill is that it will probably reach +90% user penetrations sometime in 2012. Unity or WebGL? Do not think so.
Of course Unity may have better tools available and be a nicer and proven environment for making online games. I would not know, games are not my market.
As always it will end up with the old saying, use the right tool for the right job. For some jobs that would be Unity, for other it might be Flash/Molehill.

Post by tomsamson
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection, no skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving besides the car mostly.

_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org

[Stig Kristiansen]

Well, as I have said in another post, I would not be sorry if I am wrong
on this. But I think your equally overly optimistic on behalf of both
Unity and WebGL.

Flash has in fact at least a track record of reaching impressive user
penetration.

Post by tomsamson
So, ok, you estimate everything regarding flash to turn out in the
best possible way imaginable (being able to use DirectX/ openGL
capabilities to the max and it reaching +90% penetration in a year of
new plugin version release window, despite things like Apple not
bundling flash player with OS updates anymore etc) and the worse
possible scenario for unity and webgl etc.
Ok, yes, by that logic flash always wins :-)
I agree with the bottom line of use the right tool for the job, but
yeah, regarding flash and seeing how AdobeŽs prophecies for upcoming
versions and features held up (or not) in the past, hm, iŽd say donŽt
bet on that horse before you examined it for yourself for a week or
two. And if you have a related project in view iŽd rather use whatŽs
available and working great now rather than wait for something
tehoretically coming out in a year or more.

Post by Stig Kristiansen
If what is beeing said about Molehill is true, it is basically just
an actionscript API layer above DirectX and OpenGL below. Everything
you mention should be easily doable with the right fragment and
vertex shaders.
In my opinion the best selling point for Flash/Molehill is that it
will probably reach +90% user penetrations sometime in 2012. Unity or
WebGL? Do not think so.
Of course Unity may have better tools available and be a nicer and
proven environment for making online games. I would not know, games
are not my market.
As always it will end up with the old saying, use the right tool for
the right job. For some jobs that would be Unity, for other it might
be Flash/Molehill.

Post by tomsamson
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection,
no skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving
besides the car mostly.

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[tomsamson]

It HAD an impressive track record or reaching impressive user penetration. I donŽt see flash running well or at all on any of my portable devices, the ones on which most people who are not coders/designers will actually probably enjoy the web/apps/games etc in the future. And again, John is right, plugin penetration figures matter less and less in general, things like amount of platforms things run well on is way more important and then, yeah, when comparing this new flash 3d running player with the unity plugin then the unity plugin has a drastically higher plugin penetration number.

Well, as I have said in another post, I would not be sorry if I am wrong on this. But I think your equally overly optimistic on behalf of both Unity and WebGL.
Flash has in fact at least a track record of reaching impressive user penetration.

Post by tomsamson
So, ok, you estimate everything regarding flash to turn out in the best possible way imaginable (being able to use DirectX/ openGL capabilities to the max and it reaching +90% penetration in a year of new plugin version release window, despite things like Apple not bundling flash player with OS updates anymore etc) and the worse possible scenario for unity and webgl etc.
Ok, yes, by that logic flash always wins :-)
I agree with the bottom line of use the right tool for the job, but yeah, regarding flash and seeing how AdobeŽs prophecies for upcoming versions and features held up (or not) in the past, hm, iŽd say donŽt bet on that horse before you examined it for yourself for a week or two. And if you have a related project in view iŽd rather use whatŽs available and working great now rather than wait for something tehoretically coming out in a year or more.

If what is beeing said about Molehill is true, it is basically just an actionscript API layer above DirectX and OpenGL below. Everything you mention should be easily doable with the right fragment and vertex shaders.
In my opinion the best selling point for Flash/Molehill is that it will probably reach +90% user penetrations sometime in 2012. Unity or WebGL? Do not think so.
Of course Unity may have better tools available and be a nicer and proven environment for making online games. I would not know, games are not my market.
As always it will end up with the old saying, use the right tool for the right job. For some jobs that would be Unity, for other it might be Flash/Molehill.

Post by tomsamson
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection, no skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving besides the car mostly.

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[Stig Kristiansen]

"It HAD an impressive track record or reaching impressive user penetration"

Bullshit.

This is only true if you count in platforms, not if you count in users.
The total number of users on iPhone + iPad (+ Android) is still
microscopic compared to the number of users on PC/Windows + Mac/OSX.

Of course your statement *might* be true in 2012, it certainly is not *now*.

I am not doing games and entertainment so please have me excused if my
world view is dramatically different from yours. Real work will still
mostly be done on real computers in the future, not so much because of
technological limitations, but human limitations. Try sitting 8 hours in
the office working on a minuscule touch screen, you will now what I mean.

The selling point for Flash on the PC platform was and still is its
market penetration. We see no signs of this changing this or next year,
only hype and speculations. We do not make business decisions based on
hype or speculations.

The customers of my customers are mostly (70-90%) business related use.
But most of those people will be getting a smartphone comparable to
iPhone/Android or some other hand-held device *in addition* to their
computer, the majority of them already has. For that reason we are also
doing apps for the iPhone, iPad and Blackberry, the iP* apps are done in
objective-c and OpenGL ES and the Blackberry version is Java with OpenGL ES.

I agree with Jobs, if you do apps for a mobile unit you would want to
work as close to the iron as practically possible. At least for us,
Flash is not a viable option without HA support and we cannot wait for
Molehill.

Post by tomsamson
It HAD an impressive track record or reaching impressive user
penetration. I donŽt see flash running well or at all on any of my
portable devices, the ones on which most people who are not
coders/designers will actually probably enjoy the web/apps/games etc
in the future. And again, John is right, plugin penetration figures
matter less and less in general, things like amount of platforms
things run well on is way more important and then, yeah, when
comparing this new flash 3d running player with the unity plugin then
the unity plugin has a drastically higher plugin penetration number.

Post by Stig Kristiansen
Well, as I have said in another post, I would not be sorry if I am
wrong on this. But I think your equally overly optimistic on behalf
of both Unity and WebGL.
Flash has in fact at least a track record of reaching impressive user penetration.

Post by tomsamson
So, ok, you estimate everything regarding flash to turn out in the
best possible way imaginable (being able to use DirectX/ openGL
capabilities to the max and it reaching +90% penetration in a year
of new plugin version release window, despite things like Apple not
bundling flash player with OS updates anymore etc) and the worse
possible scenario for unity and webgl etc.
Ok, yes, by that logic flash always wins :-)
I agree with the bottom line of use the right tool for the job, but
yeah, regarding flash and seeing how AdobeŽs prophecies for upcoming
versions and features held up (or not) in the past, hm, iŽd say
donŽt bet on that horse before you examined it for yourself for a
week or two. And if you have a related project in view iŽd rather
use whatŽs available and working great now rather than wait for
something tehoretically coming out in a year or more.

Post by Stig Kristiansen
If what is beeing said about Molehill is true, it is basically just
an actionscript API layer above DirectX and OpenGL below.
Everything you mention should be easily doable with the right
fragment and vertex shaders.
In my opinion the best selling point for Flash/Molehill is that it
will probably reach +90% user penetrations sometime in 2012. Unity
or WebGL? Do not think so.
Of course Unity may have better tools available and be a nicer and
proven environment for making online games. I would not know, games
are not my market.
As always it will end up with the old saying, use the right tool
for the right job. For some jobs that would be Unity, for other it
might be Flash/Molehill.

Post by tomsamson
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment
reflection, no skidmarks, particle effects or anything really
dynamic or moving besides the car mostly.

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_______________________________________________
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http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org

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[tomsamson]

Post by Stig Kristiansen
"It HAD an impressive track record or reaching impressive user penetration"
Bullshit.
This is only true if you count in platforms, not if you count in users. The total number of users on iPhone + iPad (+ Android) is still microscopic compared to the number of users on PC/Windows + Mac/OSX.
Of course your statement *might* be true in 2012, it certainly is not *now*.

-->No, its not bullshit. First, letŽs take something like unity or unreal (multiplatform middleware used to create3d games, you know, what flash is trying to go up against now).
LetŽs see, unity is available on an runs at great feature set and performance on: Mac, Windows, Android, iPhone, Wii, PS3, Xbox 360.
That is a healthy count of users. Its also users on platforms which are likely to play 3d games to a big portion.

Post by Stig Kristiansen
I am not doing games and entertainment so please have me excused if my world view is dramatically different from yours. Real work will still mostly be done on real computers in the future, not so much because of technological limitations, but human limitations. Try sitting 8 hours in the office working on a minuscule touch screen, you will now what I mean.

-->Again, in my comments i implied that people like developers and designers will probably in the forseeable future still use pretty similar to today computers, just the masses of people who are not designers/developers and neither need a propper highend desktop for their other kinds of work, for that huge majority its quite likely they will use something different than a big whopping desktop machine in the future for their casual computing needs. Like smartphones and tablets as can already be seen more and more.

Post by Stig Kristiansen
The selling point for Flash on the PC platform was and still is its market penetration. We see no signs of this changing this or next year, only hype and speculations. We do not make business decisions based on hype or speculations.

-->The main selling point of flash is huge market penetration. To be honest, that is because other than that it looks more and more shallow for it besides being used for 2D animation and video (right now), compared to many compteting technologies. As John, i and some others said, whether plugin adoption rate is important or not depends on your type of content and target audience. Yes, if you donŽt make 3D games then your view on it is probably different and its more important to you. To people doing 3D games like John etc its more and more a non issue. That is a fact, no hype or speculation (unlike everything regarding the flash announcments).

Post by Stig Kristiansen
The customers of my customers are mostly (70-90%) business related use. But most of those people will be getting a smartphone comparable to iPhone/Android or some other hand-held device *in addition* to their computer, the majority of them already has. For that reason we are also doing apps for the iPhone, iPad and Blackberry, the iP* apps are done in objective-c and OpenGL ES and the Blackberry version is Java with OpenGL ES.
I agree with Jobs, if you do apps for a mobile unit you would want to work as close to the iron as practically possible. At least for us, Flash is not a viable option without HA support and we cannot wait for Molehill.

-->well, that all would be nice if all you do in flash would get accelerated. But if you do any of the non molehill api stuff (so all you do now in flash) and all besides video does not get hardware accelerated, well, bad luck.

Post by Stig Kristiansen

Post by tomsamson
It HAD an impressive track record or reaching impressive user penetration. I donŽt see flash running well or at all on any of my portable devices, the ones on which most people who are not coders/designers will actually probably enjoy the web/apps/games etc in the future. And again, John is right, plugin penetration figures matter less and less in general, things like amount of platforms things run well on is way more important and then, yeah, when comparing this new flash 3d running player with the unity plugin then the unity plugin has a drastically higher plugin penetration number.

Well, as I have said in another post, I would not be sorry if I am wrong on this. But I think your equally overly optimistic on behalf of both Unity and WebGL.
Flash has in fact at least a track record of reaching impressive user penetration.

So, ok, you estimate everything regarding flash to turn out in the best possible way imaginable (being able to use DirectX/ openGL capabilities to the max and it reaching +90% penetration in a year of new plugin version release window, despite things like Apple not bundling flash player with OS updates anymore etc) and the worse possible scenario for unity and webgl etc.
Ok, yes, by that logic flash always wins :-)
I agree with the bottom line of use the right tool for the job, but yeah, regarding flash and seeing how AdobeŽs prophecies for upcoming versions and features held up (or not) in the past, hm, iŽd say donŽt bet on that horse before you examined it for yourself for a week or two. And if you have a related project in view iŽd rather use whatŽs available and working great now rather than wait for something tehoretically coming out in a year or more.

If what is beeing said about Molehill is true, it is basically just an actionscript API layer above DirectX and OpenGL below. Everything you mention should be easily doable with the right fragment and vertex shaders.
In my opinion the best selling point for Flash/Molehill is that it will probably reach +90% user penetrations sometime in 2012. Unity or WebGL? Do not think so.
Of course Unity may have better tools available and be a nicer and proven environment for making online games. I would not know, games are not my market.
As always it will end up with the old saying, use the right tool for the right job. For some jobs that would be Unity, for other it might be Flash/Molehill.

Post by tomsamson
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection, no skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving besides the car mostly.

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[Stig Kristiansen]

Most of your claims are valid enough, only they are mostly valid for
your line of work.

Post by tomsamson

Post by Stig Kristiansen
"It HAD an impressive track record or reaching impressive user penetration"
Bullshit.
This is only true if you count in platforms, not if you count in
users. The total number of users on iPhone + iPad (+ Android) is
still microscopic compared to the number of users on PC/Windows +
Mac/OSX.
Of course your statement *might* be true in 2012, it certainly is not *now*.

-->No, its not bullshit. First, letŽs take something like unity or
unreal (multiplatform middleware used to create3d games, you know,
what flash is trying to go up against now).
LetŽs see, unity is available on an runs at great feature set and
performance on: Mac, Windows, Android, iPhone, Wii, PS3, Xbox 360.
That is a healthy count of users. Its also users on platforms which
are likely to play 3d games to a big portion.

That is a count of platforms and not a count of users. Your also listing
3 platform that is mainly interesting for the gaming industry.

Post by tomsamson

Post by Stig Kristiansen
I am not doing games and entertainment so please have me excused if
my world view is dramatically different from yours. Real work will
still mostly be done on real computers in the future, not so much
because of technological limitations, but human limitations. Try
sitting 8 hours in the office working on a minuscule touch screen,
you will now what I mean.

-->Again, in my comments i implied that people like developers and
designers will probably in the forseeable future still use pretty
similar to today computers, just the masses of people who are not
designers/developers and neither need a propper highend desktop for
their other kinds of work, for that huge majority its quite likely
they will use something different than a big whopping desktop machine
in the future for their casual computing needs. Like smartphones and
tablets as can already be seen more and more.

Define masses of people. I think you mean the masses of game players.

You are also talking about the future to try to defend your claims about
todays number (that Flash does not have great market penetration longer).

Post by tomsamson

Post by Stig Kristiansen
The selling point for Flash on the PC platform was and still is its
market penetration. We see no signs of this changing this or next
year, only hype and speculations. We do not make business decisions
based on hype or speculations.

-->The main selling point of flash is huge market penetration. To be
honest, that is because other than that it looks more and more shallow
for it besides being used for 2D animation and video (right now),
compared to many compteting technologies. As John, i and some others
said, whether plugin adoption rate is important or not depends on your
type of content and target audience. Yes, if you donŽt make 3D games
then your view on it is probably different and its more important to
you. To people doing 3D games like John etc its more and more a non
issue. That is a fact, no hype or speculation (unlike everything
regarding the flash announcments).

Exactly.

Post by tomsamson

Post by Stig Kristiansen
The customers of my customers are mostly (70-90%) business related
use. But most of those people will be getting a smartphone comparable
to iPhone/Android or some other hand-held device *in addition* to
their computer, the majority of them already has. For that reason we
are also doing apps for the iPhone, iPad and Blackberry, the iP* apps
are done in objective-c and OpenGL ES and the Blackberry version is
Java with OpenGL ES.
I agree with Jobs, if you do apps for a mobile unit you would want to
work as close to the iron as practically possible. At least for us,
Flash is not a viable option without HA support and we cannot wait
for Molehill.

-->well, that all would be nice if all you do in flash would get
accelerated. But if you do any of the non molehill api stuff (so all
you do now in flash) and all besides video does not get hardware
accelerated, well, bad luck.

But all we do in Flash will not get accelerated. BTW: We left
papervision about a year ago and made our own custom engine that do
exactly what we need and not more. I expect we will most likely look at
porting our OpenGL stuff directly to Flash when Molehill appears, unless
Unity or some other technology magically get the same market penetration
at that time. This is a decision we will have to make in the future, not
today.

Post by tomsamson

Post by Stig Kristiansen

Post by tomsamson
It HAD an impressive track record or reaching impressive user
penetration. I donŽt see flash running well or at all on any of my
portable devices, the ones on which most people who are not
coders/designers will actually probably enjoy the web/apps/games etc
in the future. And again, John is right, plugin penetration figures
matter less and less in general, things like amount of platforms
things run well on is way more important and then, yeah, when
comparing this new flash 3d running player with the unity plugin
then the unity plugin has a drastically higher plugin penetration
number.

Post by Stig Kristiansen
Well, as I have said in another post, I would not be sorry if I am
wrong on this. But I think your equally overly optimistic on behalf
of both Unity and WebGL.
Flash has in fact at least a track record of reaching impressive user penetration.

Post by tomsamson
So, ok, you estimate everything regarding flash to turn out in the
best possible way imaginable (being able to use DirectX/ openGL
capabilities to the max and it reaching +90% penetration in a year
of new plugin version release window, despite things like Apple
not bundling flash player with OS updates anymore etc) and the
worse possible scenario for unity and webgl etc.
Ok, yes, by that logic flash always wins :-)
I agree with the bottom line of use the right tool for the job,
but yeah, regarding flash and seeing how AdobeŽs prophecies for
upcoming versions and features held up (or not) in the past, hm,
iŽd say donŽt bet on that horse before you examined it for
yourself for a week or two. And if you have a related project in
view iŽd rather use whatŽs available and working great now rather
than wait for something tehoretically coming out in a year or more.

Post by Stig Kristiansen
If what is beeing said about Molehill is true, it is basically
just an actionscript API layer above DirectX and OpenGL below.
Everything you mention should be easily doable with the right
fragment and vertex shaders.
In my opinion the best selling point for Flash/Molehill is that
it will probably reach +90% user penetrations sometime in 2012.
Unity or WebGL? Do not think so.
Of course Unity may have better tools available and be a nicer
and proven environment for making online games. I would not know,
games are not my market.
As always it will end up with the old saying, use the right tool
for the right job. For some jobs that would be Unity, for other
it might be Flash/Molehill.

Post by tomsamson
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment
reflection, no skidmarks, particle effects or anything really
dynamic or moving besides the car mostly.

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[John Lindquist]

As a side note, Adobe did a very smart thing by including the 3d dev teams
on the prerelease. We'll all have some solid 3d libraries to play with the
day it's released.

Post by Stig Kristiansen
Well, as I have said in another post, I would not be sorry if I am wrong
on this. But I think your equally overly optimistic on behalf of both
Unity and WebGL.
Flash has in fact at least a track record of reaching impressive user
penetration.

Post by tomsamson
So, ok, you estimate everything regarding flash to turn out in the
best possible way imaginable (being able to use DirectX/ openGL
capabilities to the max and it reaching +90% penetration in a year of
new plugin version release window, despite things like Apple not
bundling flash player with OS updates anymore etc) and the worse
possible scenario for unity and webgl etc.
Ok, yes, by that logic flash always wins :-)
I agree with the bottom line of use the right tool for the job, but
yeah, regarding flash and seeing how AdobeŽs prophecies for upcoming
versions and features held up (or not) in the past, hm, iŽd say donŽt
bet on that horse before you examined it for yourself for a week or
two. And if you have a related project in view iŽd rather use whatŽs
available and working great now rather than wait for something
tehoretically coming out in a year or more.

Post by Stig Kristiansen
If what is beeing said about Molehill is true, it is basically just
an actionscript API layer above DirectX and OpenGL below. Everything
you mention should be easily doable with the right fragment and
vertex shaders.
In my opinion the best selling point for Flash/Molehill is that it
will probably reach +90% user penetrations sometime in 2012. Unity or
WebGL? Do not think so.
Of course Unity may have better tools available and be a nicer and
proven environment for making online games. I would not know, games
are not my market.
As always it will end up with the old saying, use the right tool for
the right job. For some jobs that would be Unity, for other it might
be Flash/Molehill.

Post by tomsamson
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection,
no skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving
besides the car mostly.

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[tomsamson]

Hm, totally depends on the angle you look at it i guess =)

Smart, maybe, positive? Quite a bit more discussion worthy.

For example my angle on that is:
1.: Giving a bunch of developers access to something all others will not have before a public beta is sorta skewing the market and if iŽd care to use it iŽd find it quite unfair and would be pretty pissed =)
2.: What i expect from a middleware provider is that they deliver the middleware in nicely usable form.
In case of something like flash for me that would mean that any new api introduced works fine in all languages, thereŽs not just raw low level classes but ideally higher level, if not framework/ engine level things coming with it easing people into using it.
And yeah, for everything visuals related there should also be a way to edit it visually in the IDE, so people actually usually dealing with the graphics side most times(graphic artists) can actually use it.
Bitmapdata,PixelBender,Alchemy, Molehill etc, all completely useless to any graphic artist who isnŽt also coder or doesnŽt work closely with a coder.
Nice if youŽre a coder wanting to do demo kinda stuff or also do the graphics side of your app in thse things, but really, seriously, in 2010?
How many years did they have for this stuff?

So yeah, to me this move now by Adobe feels like another (maybe final) step towards doing less and less of the work i think a middleware provider should do and leaving more and more of the work to low level "faroited at the time" community developers.

I like it when the community comes up with nice stuff, but when it goes to the level it has with flash, where people create entire 3d frameworks, code editors etc cause these and many other things are lacking in the ide for way too long, hm, dunno.
If Adobe releases the next Flash IDE as freeware, ok, thatŽs reasonable, otherwise, weird..

As a side note, Adobe did a very smart thing by including the 3d dev teams on the prerelease. We'll all have some solid 3d libraries to play with the day it's released.

Post by Stig Kristiansen
Well, as I have said in another post, I would not be sorry if I am wrong
on this. But I think your equally overly optimistic on behalf of both
Unity and WebGL.
Flash has in fact at least a track record of reaching impressive user
penetration.

Post by tomsamson
So, ok, you estimate everything regarding flash to turn out in the
best possible way imaginable (being able to use DirectX/ openGL
capabilities to the max and it reaching +90% penetration in a year of
new plugin version release window, despite things like Apple not
bundling flash player with OS updates anymore etc) and the worse
possible scenario for unity and webgl etc.
Ok, yes, by that logic flash always wins :-)
I agree with the bottom line of use the right tool for the job, but
yeah, regarding flash and seeing how AdobeŽs prophecies for upcoming
versions and features held up (or not) in the past, hm, iŽd say donŽt
bet on that horse before you examined it for yourself for a week or
two. And if you have a related project in view iŽd rather use whatŽs
available and working great now rather than wait for something
tehoretically coming out in a year or more.

Post by Stig Kristiansen
If what is beeing said about Molehill is true, it is basically just
an actionscript API layer above DirectX and OpenGL below. Everything
you mention should be easily doable with the right fragment and
vertex shaders.
In my opinion the best selling point for Flash/Molehill is that it
will probably reach +90% user penetrations sometime in 2012. Unity or
WebGL? Do not think so.
Of course Unity may have better tools available and be a nicer and
proven environment for making online games. I would not know, games
are not my market.
As always it will end up with the old saying, use the right tool for
the right job. For some jobs that would be Unity, for other it might
be Flash/Molehill.

Post by tomsamson
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection,
no skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving
besides the car mostly.

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[John Grden]

Ok, thanks to the folks over at LucasFilm for confirming this just now:

If you go to StarWars.com, you'll see the games section. There are nine
titles. 2 of which are Unity3D games, the others are Flash based. 4 of the
Flash apps are actual "games", 3 others are not.

Out of the "games" it was confirmed that Trench Run and Quest for R2-D2 are
by far the leaders in their traffic per month. They can't disclose the #'s,
but it's in the millions for both those titles. The Flash games? not so
much.

StarWars.com is a very high traffic site and their mailing list is in the
millions on a monthly basis. They're very picky folks as well. I've worked
with them for several years now (nearly a decade) and I've done Flash
marketing sites, flash games and Unity3D games for them. When discussing
Marketing efforts, Flash wins hands down in the discussion - we don't even
bring up Unity because that's not it's job. When it comes to game titles,
LucasFilm doesn't even flinch - they ASSUME it's in Unity3D these days. The
Trench Run (written by yours truly) is also deployed on the iPhone/iOS
platform and is likely to see the android market as well. If we had the
budget and time for it, we could put it out as a native iPad app, but as it
is, it runs just fine on the iPad. There's been talk about wii and other
consoles. That's penetration when you're talking about games.

This is a perfect illustration on how "plug-in penetration" doesn't factor
when we're talking about 3D Game development. It's not an issue.
Deployment, stability, speed - those topics DO matter. When Adobe DOES
come out with something that supports hardware for 3D, they're going to be
faced with the same challenges that Unity's already dealt with for many
years now. And Unity's pretty good at it already.

Post by tomsamson
Hm, totally depends on the angle you look at it i guess =)
Smart, maybe, positive? Quite a bit more discussion worthy.
1.: Giving a bunch of developers access to something all others will not
have before a public beta is sorta skewing the market and if iŽd care to use
it iŽd find it quite unfair and would be pretty pissed =)
2.: What i expect from a middleware provider is that they deliver the
middleware in nicely usable form.
In case of something like flash for me that would mean that any new api
introduced works fine in all languages, thereŽs not just raw low level
classes but ideally higher level, if not framework/ engine level things
coming with it easing people into using it.
And yeah, for everything visuals related there should also be a way to edit
it visually in the IDE, so people actually usually dealing with the graphics
side most times(graphic artists) can actually use it.
Bitmapdata,PixelBender,Alchemy, Molehill etc, all completely useless to any
graphic artist who isnŽt also coder or doesnŽt work closely with a coder.
Nice if youŽre a coder wanting to do demo kinda stuff or also do the
graphics side of your app in thse things, but really, seriously, in 2010?
How many years did they have for this stuff?
So yeah, to me this move now by Adobe feels like another (maybe final) step
towards doing less and less of the work i think a middleware provider should
do and leaving more and more of the work to low level "faroited at the time"
community developers.
I like it when the community comes up with nice stuff, but when it goes to
the level it has with flash, where people create entire 3d frameworks, code
editors etc cause these and many other things are lacking in the ide for
way too long, hm, dunno.
If Adobe releases the next Flash IDE as freeware, ok, thatŽs reasonable,
otherwise, weird..
As a side note, Adobe did a very smart thing by including the 3d dev teams
on the prerelease. We'll all have some solid 3d libraries to play with the
day it's released.

Post by Stig Kristiansen
Well, as I have said in another post, I would not be sorry if I am wrong
on this. But I think your equally overly optimistic on behalf of both
Unity and WebGL.
Flash has in fact at least a track record of reaching impressive user
penetration.

Post by tomsamson
So, ok, you estimate everything regarding flash to turn out in the
best possible way imaginable (being able to use DirectX/ openGL
capabilities to the max and it reaching +90% penetration in a year of
new plugin version release window, despite things like Apple not
bundling flash player with OS updates anymore etc) and the worse
possible scenario for unity and webgl etc.
Ok, yes, by that logic flash always wins :-)
I agree with the bottom line of use the right tool for the job, but
yeah, regarding flash and seeing how AdobeŽs prophecies for upcoming
versions and features held up (or not) in the past, hm, iŽd say donŽt
bet on that horse before you examined it for yourself for a week or
two. And if you have a related project in view iŽd rather use whatŽs
available and working great now rather than wait for something
tehoretically coming out in a year or more.

Post by Stig Kristiansen
If what is beeing said about Molehill is true, it is basically just
an actionscript API layer above DirectX and OpenGL below. Everything
you mention should be easily doable with the right fragment and
vertex shaders.
In my opinion the best selling point for Flash/Molehill is that it
will probably reach +90% user penetrations sometime in 2012. Unity or
WebGL? Do not think so.
Of course Unity may have better tools available and be a nicer and
proven environment for making online games. I would not know, games
are not my market.
As always it will end up with the old saying, use the right tool for
the right job. For some jobs that would be Unity, for other it might
be Flash/Molehill.

Post by tomsamson
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection,
no skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving
besides the car mostly.

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[nelson ramirez]

Wow PV3D guys. Way to sound petty and small.
It's not unreasonable to expect tooling for molehill to come later on as a
big selling point on CSx
Releases.
Just because you weren't invited to the party doesn't mean you can belittle
the work of the guys who did.

Post by tomsamson
Dunno about the others, but all i said totally applies to the videos
showing the molehill demos and all info stated by Adobe on the stuff.
Adobe seems to not be a lot into integrating the new api for usage in
visual workflow in the ide, nor does it seem to be integrated with any of
the old languages/ apis, so old stuff still runs slow as always.
And yeah, even the nicest demos shown there are still years behind what was
doable in unity etc several years ago and is not close to being a match for
what other technologies allow doing now.
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection, no
skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving besides the
car mostly.
Compare it to unreal citadel demo running on iPad to get what other
middleware is capable of even on way less powerful machines.
Not even to mention that it isnŽt cross platform as in runs like that on
anything besides mac/ pc anytime soon and even for those it will probably
not be finalized and nicely usable for at least a year and then.
For example propper mobile support is touted so long by Adobe as if it was
already live in action anywhere.
How many Android devices can run flash right now and how many of those in
propper usable performance besides for the most basic 2D content?
IŽm also wondering what Adobe thinks why people should buy Flash IDE
anymore if it doesnŽt offer any visual editing support for most things
introduced api side since flash 7.
Nice people like the alternative guys create engines and frameworks "for them" but yeah..
This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on
the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)
http://jpauclair.net/2010/10/27/molehill/
http://youtu.be/szaXvTsoeVs
http://www.flashrealtime.com/max-racer-multiplayer/
http://youtu.be/tgwi0lWgX8w
Cedric
http://youtu.be/szaXvTsoeVs
Well, JohnŽs point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be
done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other technologies
when compared to various other things.
"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*? It's
pointless."
Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support. While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc. If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.
They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.
Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.
If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.
In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed. We
stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided
a
better experience over what we already had. There were no speed increases
or anything magical. Just an API.
Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages
PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the
sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit. That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer
to
the moral.
I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them. They're about
5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke. Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you
step
out and experience something else. So when I hear about "incredible
demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*? It's pointless. It's like they're all dealing with
a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo,
but
at the end of the day, guess what?! it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.
If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it. It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
a
year.
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--
[ JPG ]
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[John Grden]

again, we're not belittling - take the time to read what I've written.

For the last time - away3d guys are brilliant, talented and have
accomplished much. End of story.

Post by nelson ramirez
Wow PV3D guys. Way to sound petty and small.
It's not unreasonable to expect tooling for molehill to come later on as a
big selling point on CSx
Releases.
Just because you weren't invited to the party doesn't mean you can belittle
the work of the guys who did.

Post by tomsamson
Dunno about the others, but all i said totally applies to the videos
showing the molehill demos and all info stated by Adobe on the stuff.
Adobe seems to not be a lot into integrating the new api for usage in
visual workflow in the ide, nor does it seem to be integrated with any of
the old languages/ apis, so old stuff still runs slow as always.
And yeah, even the nicest demos shown there are still years behind what
was doable in unity etc several years ago and is not close to being a match
for what other technologies allow doing now.
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection, no
skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving besides the
car mostly.
Compare it to unreal citadel demo running on iPad to get what other
middleware is capable of even on way less powerful machines.
Not even to mention that it isnŽt cross platform as in runs like that on
anything besides mac/ pc anytime soon and even for those it will probably
not be finalized and nicely usable for at least a year and then.
For example propper mobile support is touted so long by Adobe as if it was
already live in action anywhere.
How many Android devices can run flash right now and how many of those in
propper usable performance besides for the most basic 2D content?
IŽm also wondering what Adobe thinks why people should buy Flash IDE
anymore if it doesnŽt offer any visual editing support for most things
introduced api side since flash 7.
Nice people like the alternative guys create engines and frameworks "for them" but yeah..
This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on
the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)
http://jpauclair.net/2010/10/27/molehill/
http://youtu.be/szaXvTsoeVs
http://www.flashrealtime.com/max-racer-multiplayer/
http://youtu.be/tgwi0lWgX8w
Cedric
http://youtu.be/szaXvTsoeVs
Well, JohnŽs point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be
done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other
technologies when compared to various other things.
"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*? It's
pointless."
Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support. While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc. If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.
They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.
Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.
If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.
In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed. We
stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided
a
better experience over what we already had. There were no speed increases
or anything magical. Just an API.
Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages
PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the
sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit. That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer
to
the moral.
I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them. They're about
5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke. Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you
step
out and experience something else. So when I hear about "incredible
demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*? It's pointless. It's like they're all dealing with
a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo,
but
at the end of the day, guess what?! it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.
If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it. It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
a
year.
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[tomsamson]

Erm, slow, tiger. First:
IŽm not one of the pv3d team members. IŽm a longtime flash and other technologies user, artist and developer, thatŽs about it.
I personally donŽt have any benefit or negative impact depending on who of the flash 3d engine developers gets invited to a party.
I have a stance on flash, which is i used to love it, use it for a ton of things and well, it kinda got stuck/ developed in wrong direction and way too slow in my eyes for many years now so meanwhile i use way more other technologies instead of flash for more and more things.
I had that stance way before molehill was announced or anything.

Next up: read JohnŽs previous comment on the topic, i think he put his view nicely, so if you want to have the view of a pv3d core member focus on his comments.

Post by nelson ramirez
Wow PV3D guys. Way to sound petty and small.
It's not unreasonable to expect tooling for molehill to come later on as a big selling point on CSx
Releases.
Just because you weren't invited to the party doesn't mean you can belittle the work of the guys who did.
Dunno about the others, but all i said totally applies to the videos showing the molehill demos and all info stated by Adobe on the stuff.
Adobe seems to not be a lot into integrating the new api for usage in visual workflow in the ide, nor does it seem to be integrated with any of the old languages/ apis, so old stuff still runs slow as always.
And yeah, even the nicest demos shown there are still years behind what was doable in unity etc several years ago and is not close to being a match for what other technologies allow doing now.
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection, no skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving besides the car mostly.
Compare it to unreal citadel demo running on iPad to get what other middleware is capable of even on way less powerful machines.
Not even to mention that it isnŽt cross platform as in runs like that on anything besides mac/ pc anytime soon and even for those it will probably not be finalized and nicely usable for at least a year and then.
For example propper mobile support is touted so long by Adobe as if it was already live in action anywhere.
How many Android devices can run flash right now and how many of those in propper usable performance besides for the most basic 2D content?
IŽm also wondering what Adobe thinks why people should buy Flash IDE anymore if it doesnŽt offer any visual editing support for most things introduced api side since flash 7.
Nice people like the alternative guys create engines and frameworks "for them" but yeah..

Post by Cédric Muller
This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)
http://jpauclair.net/2010/10/27/molehill/
http://youtu.be/szaXvTsoeVs
http://www.flashrealtime.com/max-racer-multiplayer/
http://youtu.be/tgwi0lWgX8w
Cedric

Post by tomsamson
Well, JohnŽs point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other technologies when compared to various other things.

Post by n***@public.gmane.org
"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*? It's
pointless."
Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support. While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc. If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.
They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.
Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.
If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.

Post by John Grden
In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed. We stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided a
better experience over what we already had. There were no speed increases
or anything magical. Just an API.
Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit. That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer to
the moral.
I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them. They're about 5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke. Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you step
out and experience something else. So when I hear about "incredible demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*? It's pointless. It's like they're all dealing with a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo, but
at the end of the day, guess what?! it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.
If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it. It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.

Post by Makc
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
a
year.
_______________________________________________
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http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org

--
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[John Grden]

and besides, who said we weren't invited to the party? you assume too much.

Post by nelson ramirez
Wow PV3D guys. Way to sound petty and small.
It's not unreasonable to expect tooling for molehill to come later on as a
big selling point on CSx
Releases.
Just because you weren't invited to the party doesn't mean you can belittle
the work of the guys who did.

Post by tomsamson
Dunno about the others, but all i said totally applies to the videos
showing the molehill demos and all info stated by Adobe on the stuff.
Adobe seems to not be a lot into integrating the new api for usage in
visual workflow in the ide, nor does it seem to be integrated with any of
the old languages/ apis, so old stuff still runs slow as always.
And yeah, even the nicest demos shown there are still years behind what
was doable in unity etc several years ago and is not close to being a match
for what other technologies allow doing now.
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection, no
skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving besides the
car mostly.
Compare it to unreal citadel demo running on iPad to get what other
middleware is capable of even on way less powerful machines.
Not even to mention that it isnŽt cross platform as in runs like that on
anything besides mac/ pc anytime soon and even for those it will probably
not be finalized and nicely usable for at least a year and then.
For example propper mobile support is touted so long by Adobe as if it was
already live in action anywhere.
How many Android devices can run flash right now and how many of those in
propper usable performance besides for the most basic 2D content?
IŽm also wondering what Adobe thinks why people should buy Flash IDE
anymore if it doesnŽt offer any visual editing support for most things
introduced api side since flash 7.
Nice people like the alternative guys create engines and frameworks "for them" but yeah..
This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on
the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)
http://jpauclair.net/2010/10/27/molehill/
http://youtu.be/szaXvTsoeVs
http://www.flashrealtime.com/max-racer-multiplayer/
http://youtu.be/tgwi0lWgX8w
Cedric
http://youtu.be/szaXvTsoeVs
Well, JohnŽs point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be
done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other
technologies when compared to various other things.
"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*? It's
pointless."
Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support. While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc. If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.
They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.
Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.
If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.
In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed. We
stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided
a
better experience over what we already had. There were no speed increases
or anything magical. Just an API.
Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages
PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the
sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit. That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer
to
the moral.
I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them. They're about
5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke. Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you
step
out and experience something else. So when I hear about "incredible
demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*? It's pointless. It's like they're all dealing with
a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo,
but
at the end of the day, guess what?! it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.
If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it. It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
a
year.
_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
--
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[Andy Zupko]

I didn't know there was a party

Post by John Grden
and besides, who said we weren't invited to the party? you assume too much.
Wow PV3D guys. Way to sound petty and small.
It's not unreasonable to expect tooling for molehill to come later on as a big selling point on CSx
Releases.
Just because you weren't invited to the party doesn't mean you can belittle the work of the guys who did.
Dunno about the others, but all i said totally applies to the videos showing the molehill demos and all info stated by Adobe on the stuff.
Adobe seems to not be a lot into integrating the new api for usage in visual workflow in the ide, nor does it seem to be integrated with any of the old languages/ apis, so old stuff still runs slow as always.
And yeah, even the nicest demos shown there are still years behind what was doable in unity etc several years ago and is not close to being a match for what other technologies allow doing now.
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection, no skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving besides the car mostly.
Compare it to unreal citadel demo running on iPad to get what other middleware is capable of even on way less powerful machines.
Not even to mention that it isnŽt cross platform as in runs like that on anything besides mac/ pc anytime soon and even for those it will probably not be finalized and nicely usable for at least a year and then.
For example propper mobile support is touted so long by Adobe as if it was already live in action anywhere.
How many Android devices can run flash right now and how many of those in propper usable performance besides for the most basic 2D content?
IŽm also wondering what Adobe thinks why people should buy Flash IDE anymore if it doesnŽt offer any visual editing support for most things introduced api side since flash 7.
Nice people like the alternative guys create engines and frameworks "for them" but yeah..

Post by Cédric Muller
This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)
http://jpauclair.net/2010/10/27/molehill/
http://youtu.be/szaXvTsoeVs
http://www.flashrealtime.com/max-racer-multiplayer/
http://youtu.be/tgwi0lWgX8w
Cedric

Post by tomsamson
Well, JohnŽs point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other technologies when compared to various other things.

Post by n***@public.gmane.org
"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*? It's
pointless."
Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support. While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc. If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.
They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.
Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.
If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.

Post by John Grden
In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed. We stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided a
better experience over what we already had. There were no speed increases
or anything magical. Just an API.
Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit. That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer to
the moral.
I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them. They're about 5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke. Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you step
out and experience something else. So when I hear about "incredible demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*? It's pointless. It's like they're all dealing with a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo, but
at the end of the day, guess what?! it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.
If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it. It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.

Post by Makc
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
a
year.
_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org

--
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[Beatrix Krümmer-Frau]

how much excitement!

*Beatrix Kruemmer-Frau*
Director Actionscripthero.org
Dipl. Ing. Designer | Multimedia Developer | CEH-LPIG

Post by Andy Zupko
I didn't know there was a party

Post by John Grden
and besides, who said we weren't invited to the party? you assume too much.
Wow PV3D guys. Way to sound petty and small.
It's not unreasonable to expect tooling for molehill to come later on as a big selling point on CSx
Releases.
Just because you weren't invited to the party doesn't mean you can belittle the work of the guys who did.
Dunno about the others, but all i said totally applies to the videos showing the molehill demos and all info stated by Adobe on the stuff.
Adobe seems to not be a lot into integrating the new api for usage in visual workflow in the ide, nor does it seem to be integrated with any of the old languages/ apis, so old stuff still runs slow as always.
And yeah, even the nicest demos shown there are still years behind what was doable in unity etc several years ago and is not close to being a match for what other technologies allow doing now.
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection, no skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving besides the car mostly.
Compare it to unreal citadel demo running on iPad to get what other middleware is capable of even on way less powerful machines.
Not even to mention that it isnŽt cross platform as in runs like that on anything besides mac/ pc anytime soon and even for those it will probably not be finalized and nicely usable for at least a year and then.
For example propper mobile support is touted so long by Adobe as if it was already live in action anywhere.
How many Android devices can run flash right now and how many of those in propper usable performance besides for the most basic 2D content?
IŽm also wondering what Adobe thinks why people should buy Flash IDE anymore if it doesnŽt offer any visual editing support for most things introduced api side since flash 7.
Nice people like the alternative guys create engines and frameworks "for them" but yeah..

Post by Cédric Muller
This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)
http://jpauclair.net/2010/10/27/molehill/
http://youtu.be/szaXvTsoeVs
http://www.flashrealtime.com/max-racer-multiplayer/
http://youtu.be/tgwi0lWgX8w
Cedric

Post by tomsamson
Well, JohnŽs point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other technologies when compared to various other things.

Post by n***@public.gmane.org
"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*? It's
pointless."
Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support. While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc. If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.
They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.
Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.
If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.

Post by John Grden
In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed. We stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided a
better experience over what we already had. There were no speed increases
or anything magical. Just an API.
Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit. That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer to
the moral.
I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them. They're about 5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke. Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you step
out and experience something else. So when I hear about "incredible demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*? It's pointless. It's like they're all dealing with a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo, but
at the end of the day, guess what?! it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.
If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it. It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.

Post by Makc
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
a
year.
_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org

--
[ JPG ]
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[Cédric Muller]

Sounds like a funeral...

Post by Andy Zupko
I didn't know there was a party

Post by John Grden
and besides, who said we weren't invited to the party? you assume too much.
Wow PV3D guys. Way to sound petty and small.
It's not unreasonable to expect tooling for molehill to come later on as a big selling point on CSx
Releases.
Just because you weren't invited to the party doesn't mean you can belittle the work of the guys who did.
Dunno about the others, but all i said totally applies to the videos showing the molehill demos and all info stated by Adobe on the stuff.
Adobe seems to not be a lot into integrating the new api for usage in visual workflow in the ide, nor does it seem to be integrated with any of the old languages/ apis, so old stuff still runs slow as always.
And yeah, even the nicest demos shown there are still years behind what was doable in unity etc several years ago and is not close to being a match for what other technologies allow doing now.
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection, no skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving besides the car mostly.
Compare it to unreal citadel demo running on iPad to get what other middleware is capable of even on way less powerful machines.
Not even to mention that it isnŽt cross platform as in runs like that on anything besides mac/ pc anytime soon and even for those it will probably not be finalized and nicely usable for at least a year and then.
For example propper mobile support is touted so long by Adobe as if it was already live in action anywhere.
How many Android devices can run flash right now and how many of those in propper usable performance besides for the most basic 2D content?
IŽm also wondering what Adobe thinks why people should buy Flash IDE anymore if it doesnŽt offer any visual editing support for most things introduced api side since flash 7.
Nice people like the alternative guys create engines and frameworks "for them" but yeah..

Post by Cédric Muller
This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)
http://jpauclair.net/2010/10/27/molehill/
http://youtu.be/szaXvTsoeVs
http://www.flashrealtime.com/max-racer-multiplayer/
http://youtu.be/tgwi0lWgX8w
Cedric

Post by tomsamson
Well, JohnŽs point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other technologies when compared to various other things.

Post by n***@public.gmane.org
"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*? It's
pointless."
Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support. While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc. If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.
They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.
Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.
If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.

Post by John Grden
In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed. We stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided a
better experience over what we already had. There were no speed increases
or anything magical. Just an API.
Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit. That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer to
the moral.
I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them. They're about 5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke. Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you step
out and experience something else. So when I hear about "incredible demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*? It's pointless. It's like they're all dealing with a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo, but
at the end of the day, guess what?! it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.
If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it. It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.

Post by Makc
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
a
year.
_______________________________________________
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[John Lindquist]

Just take John up on his challenge and download the Unity ide to
build/deploy a couple hello world examples. That's the bar Adobe has to
beat. It's a very high bar.

and besides, who said we weren't invited to the party? you assume too

much.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 12:13 PM, nelson ramirez <

Post by nelson ramirez
Wow PV3D guys. Way to sound petty and small.
It's not unreasonable to expect tooling for molehill to come later on as a
big selling point on CSx
Releases.
Just because you weren't invited to the party doesn't mean you can belittle
the work of the guys who did.

Post by tomsamson
Dunno about the others, but all i said totally applies to the videos
showing the molehill demos and all info stated by Adobe on the stuff.
Adobe seems to not be a lot into integrating the new api for usage in
visual workflow in the ide, nor does it seem to be integrated with any of
the old languages/ apis, so old stuff still runs slow as always.
And yeah, even the nicest demos shown there are still years behind what
was doable in unity etc several years ago and is not close to being a match
for what other technologies allow doing now.
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection, no
skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving besides the
car mostly.
Compare it to unreal citadel demo running on iPad to get what other
middleware is capable of even on way less powerful machines.
Not even to mention that it isnŽt cross platform as in runs like that on
anything besides mac/ pc anytime soon and even for those it will probably
not be finalized and nicely usable for at least a year and then.
For example propper mobile support is touted so long by Adobe as if it was
already live in action anywhere.
How many Android devices can run flash right now and how many of those in
propper usable performance besides for the most basic 2D content?
IŽm also wondering what Adobe thinks why people should buy Flash IDE
anymore if it doesnŽt offer any visual editing support for most things
introduced api side since flash 7.
Nice people like the alternative guys create engines and frameworks "for
them" but yeah..
This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on
the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)
http://jpauclair.net/2010/10/27/molehill/
http://youtu.be/szaXvTsoeVs
http://www.flashrealtime.com/max-racer-multiplayer/
http://youtu.be/tgwi0lWgX8w
Cedric
http://youtu.be/szaXvTsoeVs
Well, JohnŽs point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be
done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other
technologies when compared to various other things.
"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*? It's
pointless."
Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support. While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc. If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.
They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.
Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.
If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.
In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed. We
stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided
a
better experience over what we already had. There were no speed

increases

Post by nelson ramirez

Post by tomsamson
or anything magical. Just an API.
Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages
PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the
sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit. That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer
to
the moral.
I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them. They're about
5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke. Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you
step
out and experience something else. So when I hear about "incredible
demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*? It's pointless. It's like they're all dealing with
a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo,
but
at the end of the day, guess what?! it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.
If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it. It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
a
year.
_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
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[John Brookes]

First time I drag/dropped a model from Maya into Unity I wanted to cry. So
easy.

Anyhoo
Well I'm just glad that John finaly confirmed whats been obvious for the
past year.
PV is dead.
At least those who want to use flash now know which engine not to put the
effort into learning.

Thanks to al the PV devs, I learned lots :)

[John Grden]

what's the fascination with calling something "dead"?

It's dead when we've all abandoned ship, but last I checked, we hadn't done
that.

Have fun with whatever you need to do the job for sure, but there's no
benefit in calling PV3D dead to you, so why do it? It's not dead. It's
waiting for everyone else to catch up (namely Adobe).

Post by John Brookes
First time I drag/dropped a model from Maya into Unity I wanted to cry. So
easy.
Anyhoo
Well I'm just glad that John finaly confirmed whats been obvious for the
past year.
PV is dead.
At least those who want to use flash now know which engine not to put the
effort into learning.
Thanks to al the PV devs, I learned lots :)
_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org

[John Grden]

I couldn't have said it any better - and I've said it to Adobe.

Until they bring the tools back to a mass user level, it doesn't mean dick.
It means that the smart geeks will continue to get off on their demo's but
in the end - nobody knows about it or much less cares. Give me the power
wrapped up in the IDE with one API to leverage them all - sound familiar? (
take your pick, LOR or Unity ;)

and the point about the middleware and citadel - that's an incredible point.


People who are ONLY doing Flash 3D just aren't aware of what they *should*
and *could* be doing. All I'm saying is - try something else, and see. It
can only help push Adobe to make more bold steps.

Post by tomsamson
Dunno about the others, but all i said totally applies to the videos
showing the molehill demos and all info stated by Adobe on the stuff.
Adobe seems to not be a lot into integrating the new api for usage in
visual workflow in the ide, nor does it seem to be integrated with any of
the old languages/ apis, so old stuff still runs slow as always.
And yeah, even the nicest demos shown there are still years behind what was
doable in unity etc several years ago and is not close to being a match for
what other technologies allow doing now.
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection, no
skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving besides the
car mostly.
Compare it to unreal citadel demo running on iPad to get what other
middleware is capable of even on way less powerful machines.
Not even to mention that it isnŽt cross platform as in runs like that on
anything besides mac/ pc anytime soon and even for those it will probably
not be finalized and nicely usable for at least a year and then.
For example propper mobile support is touted so long by Adobe as if it was
already live in action anywhere.
How many Android devices can run flash right now and how many of those in
propper usable performance besides for the most basic 2D content?
IŽm also wondering what Adobe thinks why people should buy Flash IDE
anymore if it doesnŽt offer any visual editing support for most things
introduced api side since flash 7.
Nice people like the alternative guys create engines and frameworks "for them" but yeah..
This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on
the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)
http://jpauclair.net/2010/10/27/molehill/
http://youtu.be/szaXvTsoeVs
http://www.flashrealtime.com/max-racer-multiplayer/
http://youtu.be/tgwi0lWgX8w
Cedric
http://youtu.be/szaXvTsoeVs
Well, JohnŽs point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be
done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other technologies
when compared to various other things.
"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*? It's
pointless."
Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support. While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc. If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.
They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.
Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.
If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.
In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed. We
stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided
a
better experience over what we already had. There were no speed increases
or anything magical. Just an API.
Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages
PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the
sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit. That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer
to
the moral.
I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them. They're about
5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke. Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you
step
out and experience something else. So when I hear about "incredible
demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*? It's pointless. It's like they're all dealing with
a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo,
but
at the end of the day, guess what?! it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.
If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it. It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
a
year.
_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
--
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[tomsamson]

I add my comments marked with -->

Post by John Grden
I couldn't have said it any better - and I've said it to Adobe.

-->yeah, me, too, several times. At the end i was thrown out of the beta for constantly asking for more improvements before shipping things :-D That was the moment i finally realized: Some guys at Adobe and me just have a quite different view regarding in which state flash really is and towards which direction it should ideally develop and hence no use to argue with those guys :-)

Post by John Grden
Until they bring the tools back to a mass user level, it doesn't mean dick. It means that the smart geeks will continue to get off on their demo's but in the end - nobody knows about it or much less cares. Give me the power wrapped up in the IDE with one API to leverage them all - sound familiar? ( take your pick, LOR or Unity ;)

-->Exactly. I couldnŽt agree more.

Post by John Grden
and the point about the middleware and citadel - that's an incredible point.
People who are ONLY doing Flash 3D just aren't aware of what they *should* and *could* be doing. All I'm saying is - try something else, and see. It can only help push Adobe to make more bold steps.

-->Totally. Maybe it takes a few more people getting thrown out of betas, but hey, at least the moaning and publicly leaving flash by seasoned users is forcing them to progress on some ends sometime :-D

Post by John Grden
Dunno about the others, but all i said totally applies to the videos showing the molehill demos and all info stated by Adobe on the stuff.
Adobe seems to not be a lot into integrating the new api for usage in visual workflow in the ide, nor does it seem to be integrated with any of the old languages/ apis, so old stuff still runs slow as always.
And yeah, even the nicest demos shown there are still years behind what was doable in unity etc several years ago and is not close to being a match for what other technologies allow doing now.
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection, no skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving besides the car mostly.
Compare it to unreal citadel demo running on iPad to get what other middleware is capable of even on way less powerful machines.
Not even to mention that it isnŽt cross platform as in runs like that on anything besides mac/ pc anytime soon and even for those it will probably not be finalized and nicely usable for at least a year and then.
For example propper mobile support is touted so long by Adobe as if it was already live in action anywhere.
How many Android devices can run flash right now and how many of those in propper usable performance besides for the most basic 2D content?
IŽm also wondering what Adobe thinks why people should buy Flash IDE anymore if it doesnŽt offer any visual editing support for most things introduced api side since flash 7.
Nice people like the alternative guys create engines and frameworks "for them" but yeah..

Post by Cédric Muller
This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)
http://jpauclair.net/2010/10/27/molehill/
http://youtu.be/szaXvTsoeVs
http://www.flashrealtime.com/max-racer-multiplayer/
http://youtu.be/tgwi0lWgX8w
Cedric

Post by tomsamson
Well, JohnŽs point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other technologies when compared to various other things.

Post by n***@public.gmane.org
"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*? It's
pointless."
Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support. While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc. If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.
They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.
Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.
If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.

Post by John Grden
In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed. We stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided a
better experience over what we already had. There were no speed increases
or anything magical. Just an API.
Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit. That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer to
the moral.
I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them. They're about 5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke. Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you step
out and experience something else. So when I hear about "incredible demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*? It's pointless. It's like they're all dealing with a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo, but
at the end of the day, guess what?! it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.
If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it. It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.

Post by Makc
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
a
year.
_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org

--
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[Francis Altomare]

Wow I missed that zombie one. Looks amazing, I can't wait to get my hands on
this

Post by Cédric Muller
This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on
the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)
http://jpauclair.net/2010/10/27/molehill/
http://youtu.be/szaXvTsoeVs
http://www.flashrealtime.com/max-racer-multiplayer/
http://youtu.be/tgwi0lWgX8w
Cedric
http://youtu.be/szaXvTsoeVs
Well, JohnŽs point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be
done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other technologies
when compared to various other things.
"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*? It's
pointless."
Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support. While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc. If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.
They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.
Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.
If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.
In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed. We
stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided
a
better experience over what we already had. There were no speed increases
or anything magical. Just an API.
Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages
PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the
sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit. That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer
to
the moral.
I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them. They're about
5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke. Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you
step
out and experience something else. So when I hear about "incredible
demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*? It's pointless. It's like they're all dealing with
a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo,
but
at the end of the day, guess what?! it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.
If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it. It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
a
year.
_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
--
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_______________________________________________
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http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
_______________________________________________
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Papervision3D mailing list
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org

[John Grden]

seriously, I wasn't putting them down - I like the away3d guys and
appreciate their work. I merely said, they can't go any further than what
flash allows for. They do a fantastic job, and I wouldn't say anything
against that - we've been down this road before, they know I respect their
work, so let's leave it at that.

Post by n***@public.gmane.org
"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*? It's
pointless."
Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support. While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc. If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.
They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.
Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.
If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.

Post by John Grden
In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed. We stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided a
better experience over what we already had. There were no speed

increases

Post by John Grden
or anything magical. Just an API.
Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit. That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer to
the moral.
I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them. They're about 5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for

3D.

Post by John Grden
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke. Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you step
out and experience something else. So when I hear about "incredible demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*? It's pointless. It's like they're all dealing with a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo, but
at the end of the day, guess what?! it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.
If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it. It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right

now,

Post by John Grden
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.

Post by Makc
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
a
year.
_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org

--
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[Merrill, Jason]

Am I the only one here who attended Max and went to the 3D sessions? Seems like there is a lot of misunderstanding going on in these threads.

Molehill has a low-level AS3-based 3D API (using something new called Adobe Assembler Language or something like that, I have the actual name in my notes, but not with me at the moment) to talk to the GPU. That API is not for 99.9% of the Flash developers out there, it's for the people who build Flash-based 3D engines. What it enables is engines like Away3D, Yogurt3D and Alternativa3D to do hardware rendering of 3d on a new layer. These teams already have a Flash player 10.2 (Molehill) developer preview release they are using to demo their use hardware acceleration. Molehill is NOT for your

So Molehill will have 3 rendering "layers" (these are not the same thing as the layers in the IDE). The topmost layer being what you use now, the regular old display list that is not hardware accelerated (Papervision and everthing else 2D like Sprites and TextFields). The middle layer being hardware accelerated 3D via the new APIs, and the third bottom "layer" being stage video, which is also hardware accelerated.

Check out these YouTube demos of what Molehill will allow 3D frameworks like Away 3D and Alternativa to do with your GPU.

Hardware accelerated Alternativa3D using Molehill:

Hardware accelerated Away3d using Molehill:

Molehill/Flash 10.2 is scheduled for public release this summer.

Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect
Bank of America Global Learning






From: papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org [mailto:papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of John Grden
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 11:50 AM
To: papervision3d-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [Papervision3D] is PV3D dead ?

In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed. We stopped because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided a better experience over what we already had. There were no speed increases or anything magical. Just an API.

Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages PB and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.

So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the sake of a new api that didn't give us any benefit. That and being disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer to the moral.

I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them. They're about 5-7yrs ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D. Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.

I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's more on an IPHONE with Unity3D than in a browser with flash. It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D flash - it's a joke. Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you step out and experience something else. So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*? It's pointless. It's like they're all dealing with a volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo, but at the end of the day, guess what?! it's still a freakin' volkswagon. You can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a volkswagon.

If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it. It may not have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now, but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Makc <makc.the.great-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:makc.the.great-***@public.gmane.org>> wrote:
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost a year.

_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
Papervision3D-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:Papervision3D-***@public.gmane.org>
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org



--
[ JPG ]

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Unless specifically indicated, this message is not an offer to sell or a solicitation of any investment products or other financial product or service, an official confirmation of any transaction, or an official statement of Sender. Subject to applicable law, Sender may intercept, monitor, review and retain e-communications (EC) traveling through its networks/systems and may produce any such EC to regulators, law enforcement, in litigation and as required by law.
The laws of the country of each sender/recipient may impact the handling of EC, and EC may be archived, supervised and produced in countries other than the country in which you are located. This message cannot be guaranteed to be secure or free of errors or viruses.

References to "Sender" are references to any subsidiary of Bank of America Corporation. Securities and Insurance Products: * Are Not FDIC Insured * Are Not Bank Guaranteed * May Lose Value * Are Not a Bank Deposit * Are Not a Condition to Any Banking Service or Activity * Are Not Insured by Any Federal Government Agency. Attachments that are part of this EC may have additional important disclosures and disclaimers, which you should read. This message is subject to terms available at the following link:
http://www.bankofamerica.com/emaildisclaimer. By messaging with Sender you consent to the foregoing.

[tomsamson]

No, there is not a lot of confusion, people already discussed those points. That several dislike it that not all existing IDE and api/ language made stuff gets accelerated but only video and molehill using things is what many dislike. Just like that Adobe leaves the work of integrating it, doing a framework/ engine, doing editors etc to the community.
YouŽre fine with all that? Nice for you, but yeah, that doesnŽt mean that others who are not satisfied with that donŽt understand it and are just confused.

Post by Merrill, Jason
Am I the only one here who attended Max and went to the 3D sessions? Seems like there is a lot of misunderstanding going on in these threads.
Molehill has a low-level AS3-based 3D API (using something new called Adobe Assembler Language or something like that, I have the actual name in my notes, but not with me at the moment) to talk to the GPU. That API is not for 99.9% of the Flash developers out there, it’s for the people who build Flash-based 3D engines. What it enables is engines like Away3D, Yogurt3D and Alternativa3D to do hardware rendering of 3d on a new layer. These teams already have a Flash player 10.2 (Molehill) developer preview release they are using to demo their use hardware acceleration. Molehill is NOT for your
So Molehill will have 3 rendering “layers” (these are not the same thing as the layers in the IDE). The topmost layer being what you use now, the regular old display list that is not hardware accelerated (Papervision and everthing else 2D like Sprites and TextFields). The middle layer being hardware accelerated 3D via the new APIs, and the third bottom “layer” being stage video, which is also hardware accelerated.
Check out these YouTube demos of what Molehill will allow 3D frameworks like Away 3D and Alternativa to do with your GPU.
http://youtu.be/hCXxCD_GYTA
http://youtu.be/KcKvS983K8c
http://youtu.be/9LAN5GHm5eM
Molehill/Flash 10.2 is scheduled for public release this summer.
Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect
Bank of America Global Learning
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Papervision3D] is PV3D dead ?
In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed. We stopped because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided a better experience over what we already had. There were no speed increases or anything magical. Just an API.
Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages PB and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the sake of a new api that didn't give us any benefit. That and being disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer to the moral.
I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them. They're about 5-7yrs ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D. Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's more on an IPHONE with Unity3D than in a browser with flash. It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D flash - it's a joke. Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you step out and experience something else. So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*? It's pointless. It's like they're all dealing with a volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo, but at the end of the day, guess what?! it's still a freakin' volkswagon. You can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a volkswagon.
If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it. It may not have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now, but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost a year.
_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
--
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This message w/attachments (message) is intended solely for the use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or proprietary. If you are not an intended recipient, please notify the sender, and then please delete and destroy all copies and attachments, and be advised that any review or dissemination of, or the taking of any action in reliance on, the information contained in or attached to this message is prohibited.
Unless specifically indicated, this message is not an offer to sell or a solicitation of any investment products or other financial product or service, an official confirmation of any transaction, or an official statement of Sender. Subject to applicable law, Sender may intercept, monitor, review and retain e-communications (EC) traveling through its networks/systems and may produce any such EC to regulators, law enforcement, in litigation and as required by law.
The laws of the country of each sender/recipient may impact the handling of EC, and EC may be archived, supervised and produced in countries other than the country in which you are located. This message cannot be guaranteed to be secure or free of errors or viruses.
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[Merrill, Jason]

Post by tomsamson
Just like that Adobe leaves the work of integrating it, doing a framework/ engine, doing editors etc to the community.
YouŽre fine with all that? Nice for you, but yeah, that doesnŽt mean that others who are not satisfied
with that donŽt understand it and are just confused.

They aren't. Adobe will also be releasing a library code named Proscenium which will be a 3-D framework for developers. They are focusing on making 3D accessible - it may not be as high-end as say, Alternativa, but that's OK according to them because they want to focus on making 3D accessible for basic functions and for people who don't need something as high-end as Alternativa. This is according to one of the Adobe people I spoke to after the Flash Player 3D Future session. This seems to be a smart approach to me, focusing on the hardware acceleration and providing hooks for 3D engine developers who are years ahead anyway, while also providing a basic 3D API for developers who need nothing more.

Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect
Bank of America Global Learning






From: papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org [mailto:papervision3d-***@osflash.org] On Behalf Of tomsamson
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:07 AM
To: papervision3d-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [Papervision3D] is PV3D dead ?

No, there is not a lot of confusion, people already discussed those points. That several dislike it that not all existing IDE and api/ language made stuff gets accelerated but only video and molehill using things is what many dislike. Just like that Adobe leaves the work of integrating it, doing a framework/ engine, doing editors etc to the community.
YouŽre fine with all that? Nice for you, but yeah, that doesnŽt mean that others who are not satisfied with that donŽt understand it and are just confused.




On Oct 29, 2010, at 5:37 AM, Merrill, Jason wrote:


Am I the only one here who attended Max and went to the 3D sessions? Seems like there is a lot of misunderstanding going on in these threads.

Molehill has a low-level AS3-based 3D API (using something new called Adobe Assembler Language or something like that, I have the actual name in my notes, but not with me at the moment) to talk to the GPU. That API is not for 99.9% of the Flash developers out there, it's for the people who build Flash-based 3D engines. What it enables is engines like Away3D, Yogurt3D and Alternativa3D to do hardware rendering of 3d on a new layer. These teams already have a Flash player 10.2 (Molehill) developer preview release they are using to demo their use hardware acceleration. Molehill is NOT for your

So Molehill will have 3 rendering "layers" (these are not the same thing as the layers in the IDE). The topmost layer being what you use now, the regular old display list that is not hardware accelerated (Papervision and everthing else 2D like Sprites and TextFields). The middle layer being hardware accelerated 3D via the new APIs, and the third bottom "layer" being stage video, which is also hardware accelerated.

Check out these YouTube demos of what Molehill will allow 3D frameworks like Away 3D and Alternativa to do with your GPU.

Hardware accelerated Alternativa3D using Molehill:
http://youtu.be/hCXxCD_GYTA
http://youtu.be/KcKvS983K8c

Hardware accelerated Away3d using Molehill:
http://youtu.be/9LAN5GHm5eM

Molehill/Flash 10.2 is scheduled for public release this summer.

Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect
Bank of America Global Learning






From: papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:papervision3d-***@osflash.org> [mailto:papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of John Grden
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 11:50 AM
To: papervision3d-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:papervision3d-***@public.gmane.org>
Subject: Re: [Papervision3D] is PV3D dead ?

In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed. We stopped because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided a better experience over what we already had. There were no speed increases or anything magical. Just an API.

Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages PB and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.

So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the sake of a new api that didn't give us any benefit. That and being disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer to the moral.

I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them. They're about 5-7yrs ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D. Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.

I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's more on an IPHONE with Unity3D than in a browser with flash. It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D flash - it's a joke. Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you step out and experience something else. So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*? It's pointless. It's like they're all dealing with a volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo, but at the end of the day, guess what?! it's still a freakin' volkswagon. You can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a volkswagon.

If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it. It may not have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now, but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Makc <makc.the.great-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:makc.the.great-***@public.gmane.org>> wrote:
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost a year.

_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
Papervision3D-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:Papervision3D-***@public.gmane.org>
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org



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Unless specifically indicated, this message is not an offer to sell or a solicitation of any investment products or other financial product or service, an official confirmation of any transaction, or an official statement of Sender. Subject to applicable law, Sender may intercept, monitor, review and retain e-communications (EC) traveling through its networks/systems and may produce any such EC to regulators, law enforcement, in litigation and as required by law.
The laws of the country of each sender/recipient may impact the handling of EC, and EC may be archived, supervised and produced in countries other than the country in which you are located. This message cannot be guaranteed to be secure or free of errors or viruses.

References to "Sender" are references to any subsidiary of Bank of America Corporation. Securities and Insurance Products: * Are Not FDIC Insured * Are Not Bank Guaranteed * May Lose Value * Are Not a Bank Deposit * Are Not a Condition to Any Banking Service or Activity * Are Not Insured by Any Federal Government Agency. Attachments that are part of this EC may have additional important disclosures and disclaimers, which you should read. This message is subject to terms available at the following link:
http://www.bankofamerica.com/emaildisclaimer. By messaging with Sender you consent to the foregoing.
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Unless specifically indicated, this message is not an offer to sell or a solicitation of any investment products or other financial product or service, an official confirmation of any transaction, or an official statement of Sender. Subject to applicable law, Sender may intercept, monitor, review and retain e-communications (EC) traveling through its networks/systems and may produce any such EC to regulators, law enforcement, in litigation and as required by law.
The laws of the country of each sender/recipient may impact the handling of EC, and EC may be archived, supervised and produced in countries other than the country in which you are located. This message cannot be guaranteed to be secure or free of errors or viruses.

References to "Sender" are references to any subsidiary of Bank of America Corporation. Securities and Insurance Products: * Are Not FDIC Insured * Are Not Bank Guaranteed * May Lose Value * Are Not a Bank Deposit * Are Not a Condition to Any Banking Service or Activity * Are Not Insured by Any Federal Government Agency. Attachments that are part of this EC may have additional important disclosures and disclaimers, which you should read. This message is subject to terms available at the following link:
http://www.bankofamerica.com/emaildisclaimer. By messaging with Sender you consent to the foregoing.

[John Grden]

Hey Jason, did they talk about PB and it's role? Just wondering if they
addressed shaders and access to that end of it? if they're making a higher
level api for the general public (which is a very good thing), are they
planning on making standard shader sets as well in that same api?

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 9:21 AM, Merrill, Jason <

Post by tomsamson

Post by tomsamson
Just like that Adobe leaves the work of integrating it, doing a

framework/ engine, doing editors etc to the community.

Post by tomsamson
YouŽre fine with all that? Nice for you, but yeah, that doesnŽt mean that

others who are not satisfied

Post by tomsamson
with that donŽt understand it and are just confused.

They aren’t. Adobe will also be releasing a library code named Proscenium
which will be a 3-D framework for developers. They are focusing on making
3D accessible – it may not be as high-end as say, Alternativa, but that’s OK
according to them because they want to focus on making 3D accessible for
basic functions and for people who don’t need something as high-end as
Alternativa. This is according to one of the Adobe people I spoke to after
the Flash Player 3D Future session. This seems to be a smart approach to me,
focusing on the hardware acceleration and providing hooks for 3D engine
developers who are years ahead anyway, while also providing a basic 3D API
for developers who need nothing more.
* *Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect**
* **Bank of America* Global Learning
*Sent:* Friday, October 29, 2010 5:07 AM
*Subject:* Re: [Papervision3D] is PV3D dead ?
No, there is not a lot of confusion, people already discussed those points.
That several dislike it that not all existing IDE and api/ language made
stuff gets accelerated but only video and molehill using things is what many
dislike. Just like that Adobe leaves the work of integrating it, doing a
framework/ engine, doing editors etc to the community.
YouŽre fine with all that? Nice for you, but yeah, that doesnŽt mean that
others who are not satisfied with that donŽt understand it and are just
confused.
Am I the only one here who attended Max and went to the 3D sessions?
Seems like there is a lot of misunderstanding going on in these threads.
Molehill has a low-level AS3-based 3D API (using something new called Adobe
Assembler Language or something like that, I have the actual name in my
notes, but not with me at the moment) to talk to the GPU. That API is not
for 99.9% of the Flash developers out there, it’s for the people who build
Flash-based 3D engines. What it enables is engines like Away3D, Yogurt3D and
Alternativa3D to do hardware rendering of 3d on a new layer. These teams
already have a Flash player 10.2 (Molehill) developer preview release they
are using to demo their use hardware acceleration. Molehill is NOT for your
So Molehill will have 3 rendering “layers” (these are not the same thing as
the layers in the IDE). The topmost layer being what you use now, the
regular old display list that is not hardware accelerated (Papervision and
everthing else 2D like Sprites and TextFields). The middle layer being
hardware accelerated 3D via the new APIs, and the third bottom “layer” being
stage video, which is also hardware accelerated.
Check out these YouTube demos of what Molehill will allow 3D frameworks
like Away 3D and Alternativa to do with your GPU.
http://youtu.be/hCXxCD_GYTA
http://youtu.be/KcKvS983K8c
http://youtu.be/9LAN5GHm5eM
Molehill/Flash 10.2 is scheduled for public release this summer.
* *Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect
* **Bank of America* Global Learning
*Sent:* Thursday, October 28, 2010 11:50 AM
*Subject:* Re: [Papervision3D] is PV3D dead ?
In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed. We stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided a
better experience over what we already had. There were no speed increases
or anything magical. Just an API.
Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit. That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer to
the moral.
I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them. They're about 5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke. Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you step
out and experience something else. So when I hear about "incredible demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*? It's pointless. It's like they're all dealing with a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo, but
at the end of the day, guess what?! it's still a freakin' volkswagon. You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.
If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it. It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost a year.
_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
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service, an official confirmation of any transaction, or an official
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in litigation and as required by law.
The laws of the country of each sender/recipient may impact the handling of
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References to "Sender" are references to any subsidiary of Bank of America
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Not Bank Guaranteed * May Lose Value * Are Not a Bank Deposit * Are Not a
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_______________________________________________
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[John Brookes]

Fash Player 3D future Molehill on AdobeTV
http://tv.adobe.com/watch/max-2010-develop/flash-player-3d-future/

Theres a pixel blender3d coming out, cant find the talk yet but theres this.

[John Grden]

Just got this in the mail from Unity:

Our plugin install base passed 35 million

Again, penetration is NOT the point when it comes to 3D Game development for
the web. People *will* download and install, especially when the install
for Unity is so painless (unlike other plugins).

Post by John Brookes
Fash Player 3D future Molehill on AdobeTV
http://tv.adobe.com/watch/max-2010-develop/flash-player-3d-future/
Theres a pixel blender3d coming out, cant find the talk yet but theres this.
http://youtu.be/BWIhGft8ieI
_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org

[Merrill, Jason]

Post by John Grden
Hey Jason, did they talk about PB and it's role?

Yes, they said there will be two ways to talk to the graphics hardware for low-level developers (i.e. 3D Framework developers). AGAL, which stands for Adobe Graphics Assembly Language, and PixelBender3D, which generates the necessary bytecode for you to hand off to the GPU. That's what my notes say anyway. I didn't attend the PixelBender3D session as I had a conflict, but it's apparently on Adobe TV.

I see this all as a direct, long-needed volley into the hardware acceleration world that Unity is already in. One of the Adobe Molehill engineers told me the reason they haven't done it yet is because it's very difficult to do, and they want to do it right. Whether that's the right approach, I can't say, but I am glad to see them do this, it's LONG overdue to have 3D support in Flash done properly (and natively for that matter).

So kind of a bad time for Papervision3D team to give up. :) hahha - just joking John (half seriously). But I will admit I nearly abandoned PV3D because of the z-depth sorting issues and lack of things like dynamic shadows, but I'm really excited for the future when Molehill takes off. Really, the demos they showed in the sessions blew me away. The Away3D guys showed a tree they generated at random that had 40,000 polygons and then they duplicated the tree several times to bring the total polygon count on the screen to several million (I think they estimated about 4 million polygons) and the rendering was smooth, and the animation around them was smooth. It was very impressive. They also showed a dynamic waving flag that showed cloth material could be dynamic and respond to things like wind or touching or whatever, and have little effect on performance.

Really, even with Unity already out the door, I think the future is bright for 3D on the Flash platform. Molehill by the way will also be supported in AIR and mobile.

Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect
Bank of America Global Learning






From: papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org [mailto:papervision3d-***@osflash.org] On Behalf Of John Grden
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 10:37 AM
To: papervision3d-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [Papervision3D] is PV3D dead ?

Hey Jason, did they talk about PB and it's role? Just wondering if they addressed shaders and access to that end of it? if they're making a higher level api for the general public (which is a very good thing), are they planning on making standard shader sets as well in that same api?

Post by John Grden
Just like that Adobe leaves the work of integrating it, doing a framework/ engine, doing editors etc to the community.
YouŽre fine with all that? Nice for you, but yeah, that doesnŽt mean that others who are not satisfied
with that donŽt understand it and are just confused.

They aren't. Adobe will also be releasing a library code named Proscenium which will be a 3-D framework for developers. They are focusing on making 3D accessible - it may not be as high-end as say, Alternativa, but that's OK according to them because they want to focus on making 3D accessible for basic functions and for people who don't need something as high-end as Alternativa. This is according to one of the Adobe people I spoke to after the Flash Player 3D Future session. This seems to be a smart approach to me, focusing on the hardware acceleration and providing hooks for 3D engine developers who are years ahead anyway, while also providing a basic 3D API for developers who need nothing more.

Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect
Bank of America Global Learning






From: papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:papervision3d-***@osflash.org> [mailto:papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org>] On Behalf Of tomsamson
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:07 AM

To: papervision3d-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:papervision3d-***@public.gmane.org>
Subject: Re: [Papervision3D] is PV3D dead ?

No, there is not a lot of confusion, people already discussed those points. That several dislike it that not all existing IDE and api/ language made stuff gets accelerated but only video and molehill using things is what many dislike. Just like that Adobe leaves the work of integrating it, doing a framework/ engine, doing editors etc to the community.
YouŽre fine with all that? Nice for you, but yeah, that doesnŽt mean that others who are not satisfied with that donŽt understand it and are just confused.



On Oct 29, 2010, at 5:37 AM, Merrill, Jason wrote:

Am I the only one here who attended Max and went to the 3D sessions? Seems like there is a lot of misunderstanding going on in these threads.

Molehill has a low-level AS3-based 3D API (using something new called Adobe Assembler Language or something like that, I have the actual name in my notes, but not with me at the moment) to talk to the GPU. That API is not for 99.9% of the Flash developers out there, it's for the people who build Flash-based 3D engines. What it enables is engines like Away3D, Yogurt3D and Alternativa3D to do hardware rendering of 3d on a new layer. These teams already have a Flash player 10.2 (Molehill) developer preview release they are using to demo their use hardware acceleration. Molehill is NOT for your

So Molehill will have 3 rendering "layers" (these are not the same thing as the layers in the IDE). The topmost layer being what you use now, the regular old display list that is not hardware accelerated (Papervision and everthing else 2D like Sprites and TextFields). The middle layer being hardware accelerated 3D via the new APIs, and the third bottom "layer" being stage video, which is also hardware accelerated.

Check out these YouTube demos of what Molehill will allow 3D frameworks like Away 3D and Alternativa to do with your GPU.

Hardware accelerated Alternativa3D using Molehill:
http://youtu.be/hCXxCD_GYTA
http://youtu.be/KcKvS983K8c

Hardware accelerated Away3d using Molehill:
http://youtu.be/9LAN5GHm5eM

Molehill/Flash 10.2 is scheduled for public release this summer.

Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect
Bank of America Global Learning






From: papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:papervision3d-***@osflash.org> [mailto:papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org>] On Behalf Of John Grden
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 11:50 AM
To: papervision3d-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:papervision3d-***@public.gmane.org>
Subject: Re: [Papervision3D] is PV3D dead ?

In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed. We stopped because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided a better experience over what we already had. There were no speed increases or anything magical. Just an API.

Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages PB and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.

So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the sake of a new api that didn't give us any benefit. That and being disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer to the moral.

I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them. They're about 5-7yrs ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D. Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.

I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's more on an IPHONE with Unity3D than in a browser with flash. It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D flash - it's a joke. Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you step out and experience something else. So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*? It's pointless. It's like they're all dealing with a volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo, but at the end of the day, guess what?! it's still a freakin' volkswagon. You can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a volkswagon.

If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it. It may not have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now, but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Makc <makc.the.great-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:makc.the.great-***@public.gmane.org>> wrote:
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost a year.

_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
Papervision3D-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:Papervision3D-***@public.gmane.org>
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org



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References to "Sender" are references to any subsidiary of Bank of America Corporation. Securities and Insurance Products: * Are Not FDIC Insured * Are Not Bank Guaranteed * May Lose Value * Are Not a Bank Deposit * Are Not a Condition to Any Banking Service or Activity * Are Not Insured by Any Federal Government Agency. Attachments that are part of this EC may have additional important disclosures and disclaimers, which you should read. This message is subject to terms available at the following link:
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Unless specifically indicated, this message is not an offer to sell or a solicitation of any investment products or other financial product or service, an official confirmation of any transaction, or an official statement of Sender. Subject to applicable law, Sender may intercept, monitor, review and retain e-communications (EC) traveling through its networks/systems and may produce any such EC to regulators, law enforcement, in litigation and as required by law.
The laws of the country of each sender/recipient may impact the handling of EC, and EC may be archived, supervised and produced in countries other than the country in which you are located. This message cannot be guaranteed to be secure or free of errors or viruses.

References to "Sender" are references to any subsidiary of Bank of America Corporation. Securities and Insurance Products: * Are Not FDIC Insured * Are Not Bank Guaranteed * May Lose Value * Are Not a Bank Deposit * Are Not a Condition to Any Banking Service or Activity * Are Not Insured by Any Federal Government Agency. Attachments that are part of this EC may have additional important disclosures and disclaimers, which you should read. This message is subject to terms available at the following link:
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[John Grden]

yeah, I'm glad they're finally taking these steps too. I'd harped on 3D
back in MX beta and it was all met with contempt and mockery. So, I'm a
little jaded now that we're on the other end of the spectrum and I'm looking
in say "I told you so."

Yeah now I wish I'd seen the demos, that sounds REALLY nice indeed. That's
definitely where they need to be going. As long as away's api is easy to
use/understand, you can bet I'll use it if need be. They do some great
work. I wasnt a fan of their untyped work, but that's been well over a year
if not 2yrs now. I would hope they've changed that.

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Merrill, Jason <

Post by Merrill, Jason

Post by John Grden
Hey Jason, did they talk about PB and it's role?

Yes, they said there will be two ways to talk to the graphics hardware for
low-level developers (i.e. 3D Framework developers). AGAL, which stands for
Adobe Graphics Assembly Language, and PixelBender3D, which generates the
necessary bytecode for you to hand off to the GPU. That’s what my notes say
anyway. I didn’t attend the PixelBender3D session as I had a conflict, but
it’s apparently on Adobe TV.
I see this all as a direct, long-needed volley into the hardware
acceleration world that Unity is already in. One of the Adobe Molehill
engineers told me the reason they haven’t done it yet is because it’s very
difficult to do, and they want to do it right. Whether that’s the right
approach, I can’t say, but I am glad to see them do this, it’s LONG overdue
to have 3D support in Flash done properly (and natively for that matter).
So kind of a bad time for Papervision3D team to give up. J hahha – just
joking John (half seriously). But I will admit I nearly abandoned PV3D
because of the z-depth sorting issues and lack of things like dynamic
shadows, but I’m really excited for the future when Molehill takes off.
Really, the demos they showed in the sessions blew me away. The Away3D guys
showed a tree they generated at random that had 40,000 polygons and then
they duplicated the tree several times to bring the total polygon count on
the screen to several million (I think they estimated about 4 million
polygons) and the rendering was smooth, and the animation around them was
smooth. It was very impressive. They also showed a dynamic waving flag that
showed cloth material could be dynamic and respond to things like wind or
touching or whatever, and have little effect on performance.
Really, even with Unity already out the door, I think the future is bright
for 3D on the Flash platform. Molehill by the way will also be supported in
AIR and mobile.
* *Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect**
* **Bank of America* Global Learning
*Sent:* Friday, October 29, 2010 10:37 AM
*Subject:* Re: [Papervision3D] is PV3D dead ?
Hey Jason, did they talk about PB and it's role? Just wondering if they
addressed shaders and access to that end of it? if they're making a higher
level api for the general public (which is a very good thing), are they
planning on making standard shader sets as well in that same api?
On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 9:21 AM, Merrill, Jason <

Post by John Grden
Just like that Adobe leaves the work of integrating it, doing a

framework/ engine, doing editors etc to the community.

Post by John Grden
YouŽre fine with all that? Nice for you, but yeah, that doesnŽt mean that

others who are not satisfied

Post by John Grden
with that donŽt understand it and are just confused.

They aren’t. Adobe will also be releasing a library code named Proscenium
which will be a 3-D framework for developers. They are focusing on making
3D accessible – it may not be as high-end as say, Alternativa, but that’s OK
according to them because they want to focus on making 3D accessible for
basic functions and for people who don’t need something as high-end as
Alternativa. This is according to one of the Adobe people I spoke to after
the Flash Player 3D Future session. This seems to be a smart approach to me,
focusing on the hardware acceleration and providing hooks for 3D engine
developers who are years ahead anyway, while also providing a basic 3D API
for developers who need nothing more.
* *Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect
* **Bank of America* Global Learning
*Sent:* Friday, October 29, 2010 5:07 AM
*Subject:* Re: [Papervision3D] is PV3D dead ?
No, there is not a lot of confusion, people already discussed those points.
That several dislike it that not all existing IDE and api/ language made
stuff gets accelerated but only video and molehill using things is what many
dislike. Just like that Adobe leaves the work of integrating it, doing a
framework/ engine, doing editors etc to the community.
YouŽre fine with all that? Nice for you, but yeah, that doesnŽt mean that
others who are not satisfied with that donŽt understand it and are just
confused.
Am I the only one here who attended Max and went to the 3D sessions? Seems
like there is a lot of misunderstanding going on in these threads.
Molehill has a low-level AS3-based 3D API (using something new called Adobe
Assembler Language or something like that, I have the actual name in my
notes, but not with me at the moment) to talk to the GPU. That API is not
for 99.9% of the Flash developers out there, it’s for the people who build
Flash-based 3D engines. What it enables is engines like Away3D, Yogurt3D and
Alternativa3D to do hardware rendering of 3d on a new layer. These teams
already have a Flash player 10.2 (Molehill) developer preview release they
are using to demo their use hardware acceleration. Molehill is NOT for your
So Molehill will have 3 rendering “layers” (these are not the same thing as
the layers in the IDE). The topmost layer being what you use now, the
regular old display list that is not hardware accelerated (Papervision and
everthing else 2D like Sprites and TextFields). The middle layer being
hardware accelerated 3D via the new APIs, and the third bottom “layer” being
stage video, which is also hardware accelerated.
Check out these YouTube demos of what Molehill will allow 3D frameworks
like Away 3D and Alternativa to do with your GPU.
http://youtu.be/hCXxCD_GYTA
http://youtu.be/KcKvS983K8c
http://youtu.be/9LAN5GHm5eM
Molehill/Flash 10.2 is scheduled for public release this summer.
* *Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect
* **Bank of America* Global Learning
*Sent:* Thursday, October 28, 2010 11:50 AM
*Subject:* Re: [Papervision3D] is PV3D dead ?
In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed. We stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided a
better experience over what we already had. There were no speed increases
or anything magical. Just an API.
Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit. That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer to
the moral.
I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them. They're about 5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke. Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you step
out and experience something else. So when I hear about "incredible demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*? It's pointless. It's like they're all dealing with a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo, but
at the end of the day, guess what?! it's still a freakin' volkswagon. You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.
If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it. It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost a year.
_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
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[Merrill, Jason]

Post by John Grden
Yeah now I wish I'd seen the demos, that sounds REALLY nice indeed.

Yeah, looks like that particular session is not up on Adobe TV (or at least not yet), but here are some YouTube links of some of them they showed:

Hardware accelerated Alternativa3D using Molehill:
http://youtu.be/hCXxCD_GYTA

(pay attention to the dynamic shadows and lighting effects produced by the monsters)

http://youtu.be/KcKvS983K8c

Hardware accelerated Away3d using Molehill:
http://youtu.be/9LAN5GHm5eM



Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect
Bank of America Global Learning






From: papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org [mailto:papervision3d-***@osflash.org] On Behalf Of John Grden
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 2:40 PM
To: papervision3d-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [Papervision3D] is PV3D dead ?

yeah, I'm glad they're finally taking these steps too. I'd harped on 3D back in MX beta and it was all met with contempt and mockery. So, I'm a little jaded now that we're on the other end of the spectrum and I'm looking in say "I told you so."

Yeah now I wish I'd seen the demos, that sounds REALLY nice indeed. That's definitely where they need to be going. As long as away's api is easy to use/understand, you can bet I'll use it if need be. They do some great work. I wasnt a fan of their untyped work, but that's been well over a year if not 2yrs now. I would hope they've changed that.

Post by John Grden
Hey Jason, did they talk about PB and it's role?

Yes, they said there will be two ways to talk to the graphics hardware for low-level developers (i.e. 3D Framework developers). AGAL, which stands for Adobe Graphics Assembly Language, and PixelBender3D, which generates the necessary bytecode for you to hand off to the GPU. That's what my notes say anyway. I didn't attend the PixelBender3D session as I had a conflict, but it's apparently on Adobe TV.

I see this all as a direct, long-needed volley into the hardware acceleration world that Unity is already in. One of the Adobe Molehill engineers told me the reason they haven't done it yet is because it's very difficult to do, and they want to do it right. Whether that's the right approach, I can't say, but I am glad to see them do this, it's LONG overdue to have 3D support in Flash done properly (and natively for that matter).

So kind of a bad time for Papervision3D team to give up. :) hahha - just joking John (half seriously). But I will admit I nearly abandoned PV3D because of the z-depth sorting issues and lack of things like dynamic shadows, but I'm really excited for the future when Molehill takes off. Really, the demos they showed in the sessions blew me away. The Away3D guys showed a tree they generated at random that had 40,000 polygons and then they duplicated the tree several times to bring the total polygon count on the screen to several million (I think they estimated about 4 million polygons) and the rendering was smooth, and the animation around them was smooth. It was very impressive. They also showed a dynamic waving flag that showed cloth material could be dynamic and respond to things like wind or touching or whatever, and have little effect on performance.

Really, even with Unity already out the door, I think the future is bright for 3D on the Flash platform. Molehill by the way will also be supported in AIR and mobile.

Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect
Bank of America Global Learning






From: papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:papervision3d-***@osflash.org> [mailto:papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org>] On Behalf Of John Grden
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 10:37 AM

To: papervision3d-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:papervision3d-***@public.gmane.org>
Subject: Re: [Papervision3D] is PV3D dead ?

Hey Jason, did they talk about PB and it's role? Just wondering if they addressed shaders and access to that end of it? if they're making a higher level api for the general public (which is a very good thing), are they planning on making standard shader sets as well in that same api?

Post by John Grden
Just like that Adobe leaves the work of integrating it, doing a framework/ engine, doing editors etc to the community.
YouŽre fine with all that? Nice for you, but yeah, that doesnŽt mean that others who are not satisfied
with that donŽt understand it and are just confused.

They aren't. Adobe will also be releasing a library code named Proscenium which will be a 3-D framework for developers. They are focusing on making 3D accessible - it may not be as high-end as say, Alternativa, but that's OK according to them because they want to focus on making 3D accessible for basic functions and for people who don't need something as high-end as Alternativa. This is according to one of the Adobe people I spoke to after the Flash Player 3D Future session. This seems to be a smart approach to me, focusing on the hardware acceleration and providing hooks for 3D engine developers who are years ahead anyway, while also providing a basic 3D API for developers who need nothing more.

Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect
Bank of America Global Learning






From: papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:papervision3d-***@osflash.org> [mailto:papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org>] On Behalf Of tomsamson
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:07 AM

To: papervision3d-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:papervision3d-***@public.gmane.org>
Subject: Re: [Papervision3D] is PV3D dead ?

No, there is not a lot of confusion, people already discussed those points. That several dislike it that not all existing IDE and api/ language made stuff gets accelerated but only video and molehill using things is what many dislike. Just like that Adobe leaves the work of integrating it, doing a framework/ engine, doing editors etc to the community.
YouŽre fine with all that? Nice for you, but yeah, that doesnŽt mean that others who are not satisfied with that donŽt understand it and are just confused.



On Oct 29, 2010, at 5:37 AM, Merrill, Jason wrote:

Am I the only one here who attended Max and went to the 3D sessions? Seems like there is a lot of misunderstanding going on in these threads.

Molehill has a low-level AS3-based 3D API (using something new called Adobe Assembler Language or something like that, I have the actual name in my notes, but not with me at the moment) to talk to the GPU. That API is not for 99.9% of the Flash developers out there, it's for the people who build Flash-based 3D engines. What it enables is engines like Away3D, Yogurt3D and Alternativa3D to do hardware rendering of 3d on a new layer. These teams already have a Flash player 10.2 (Molehill) developer preview release they are using to demo their use hardware acceleration. Molehill is NOT for your

So Molehill will have 3 rendering "layers" (these are not the same thing as the layers in the IDE). The topmost layer being what you use now, the regular old display list that is not hardware accelerated (Papervision and everthing else 2D like Sprites and TextFields). The middle layer being hardware accelerated 3D via the new APIs, and the third bottom "layer" being stage video, which is also hardware accelerated.

Check out these YouTube demos of what Molehill will allow 3D frameworks like Away 3D and Alternativa to do with your GPU.

Hardware accelerated Alternativa3D using Molehill:
http://youtu.be/hCXxCD_GYTA
http://youtu.be/KcKvS983K8c

Hardware accelerated Away3d using Molehill:
http://youtu.be/9LAN5GHm5eM

Molehill/Flash 10.2 is scheduled for public release this summer.

Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect
Bank of America Global Learning






From: papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:papervision3d-***@osflash.org> [mailto:papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org>] On Behalf Of John Grden
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 11:50 AM
To: papervision3d-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:papervision3d-***@public.gmane.org>
Subject: Re: [Papervision3D] is PV3D dead ?

In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed. We stopped because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided a better experience over what we already had. There were no speed increases or anything magical. Just an API.

Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages PB and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.

So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the sake of a new api that didn't give us any benefit. That and being disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer to the moral.

I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them. They're about 5-7yrs ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D. Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.

I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's more on an IPHONE with Unity3D than in a browser with flash. It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D flash - it's a joke. Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you step out and experience something else. So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*? It's pointless. It's like they're all dealing with a volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo, but at the end of the day, guess what?! it's still a freakin' volkswagon. You can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a volkswagon.

If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it. It may not have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now, but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Makc <makc.the.great-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:makc.the.great-***@public.gmane.org>> wrote:
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost a year.

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Post by Merrill, Jason
Adobe will also be releasing a library code named Proscenium which
will be a 3-D framework for developers.

Slight diversion but thought some speculation on the code name.... I
doubt it relates to

http://code.google.com/p/proscene/source/browse/testingproscene/src/AlternativeUse.java

but seems interesting when reading this processing libraries

"Proscene not only means a "pro-scene", but it is a two-phoneme word
pronounced similar as the Czech word "prosím" (which means "please"),
obtained by removing the middle phoneme ("ce") of the word pro-ce-
ssing. Thus, the name "Proscene" suggests the main goal of the
package, which is to help you shorten the creation of interactive 3D
scenes in Processing."

It did make me wonder when following some links off the landing page..
http://codeanticode.wordpress.com/2010/03/04/glgraphics-0-9-3-3/
http://www.libqglviewer.com/

anyway slight diversion you can go back to arguing about what's dead.

[Guillaume Amringer]

KK I think this pretty much answers my question... thanks guys !




*Guillaume Amringer*

Post by Merrill, Jason
Adobe will also be releasing a library code named Proscenium which will be
a 3-D framework for developers.
Slight diversion but thought some speculation on the code name.... I doubt
it relates to
http://code.google.com/p/proscene/source/browse/testingproscene/src/AlternativeUse.java
but seems interesting when reading this processing libraries
"*Proscene* not only means a *"pro-scene"*, but it is a two-phoneme word
pronounced similar as the Czech word *"prosím"* (which means *"please"*),
obtained by removing the middle phoneme (*"ce"*) of the word *pro-ce-ssing
*. Thus, the name *"Proscene"* suggests the main goal of the package,
which is to help you *shorten* the creation of interactive 3D scenes in *
Processing*."
It did make me wonder when following some links off the landing page..
http://codeanticode.wordpress.com/2010/03/04/glgraphics-0-9-3-3/
http://www.libqglviewer.com/
anyway slight diversion you can go back to arguing about what's dead.
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[John Brookes]

Either its dead or its resting.
Remarkable bird, the Norwegian Blue. Beautiful plumage!
;)

[slopester]

Well if PV3D is dead, I'd just like to say to the dev team: much respect.

I never expected anything, much less demanded anything and have been
continually grateful for the time and effort you guys put in over the years
to allow me to make shit that simply wasn't possible before your tools.

I owe you since '07 - if you're in London at all, look me up - beers on me

so long... and thanks for all the fish

[John Grden]

U know it - ask anyone, I always collect on free beer ;)

Sent from my iPhone

Post by slopester
Well if PV3D is dead, I'd just like to say to the dev team: much respect.
I never expected anything, much less demanded anything and have been
continually grateful for the time and effort you guys put in over the years
to allow me to make shit that simply wasn't possible before your tools.
I owe you since '07 - if you're in London at all, look me up - beers on me
so long... and thanks for all the fish
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[viaria]

PV3D will evolve, not dead.

[Pablo Cabana]

I will make a chorus with Slopester. Thank you very much.
Any time in Brazil, beers on me.

I am not interested on that new unity x molehill battle at all. Each
project has its own needs and it is nice to have a lot of plataforms
to choose which one fits best.

Cheers,
--
Pablo Cabana
(21) 9465-2125
Cabana Criação
(21) 2707-7020
www.cabanacriacao.com
Visite também o Cabanoblog:
www.cabanacriacao.com/blog

Post by slopester
Well if PV3D is dead, I'd just like to say to the dev team: much
respect.
I never expected anything, much less demanded anything and have been
continually grateful for the time and effort you guys put in over
the years
to allow me to make shit that simply wasn't possible before your
tools.
I owe you since '07 - if you're in London at all, look me up - beers
on me
so long... and thanks for all the fish
--
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Sent from the Papervision3D mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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