Molehill, just became a fun mountain ;)

Discussion:

John Grden

2011-02-28 17:11:45 UTC

Permalink

http://rockonflash.wordpress.com/2011/02/28/molehill-might-become-a-fun-usable-mountain/

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Merrill, Jason

2011-02-28 17:49:55 UTC

Permalink

"The one thing I'd complained about early on was that Molehill left 3D to the egg-heads who loved being the only ones who could use it. As I've said before - until you bring it to a state of usability by the masses, it's pointless and will largely be fruitless. In other words, I felt that if the new 3D capabilities weren't put in the hands of us lesser-folk through a common interface and language, it wasn't going to go anywhere except for demoscene reels on YouTube. Enter in Unity, and you just fixed all of that."

It's not pointless. Adobe clarified at Max 2010 that the Molehill API is for the 3D engine/framework developers, it was never targeted at the standard Actionscript developer. They mentioned they were possibly going to create an API for Flash designers and developers, but for the most part, Molehill is for the likes of third party 3D framework developers like Away3D and Alternativa3D. With those frameworks already targeting Molehill and building off it, the masses are not left out of Molehill's capabilities to tap into hardware acceleration. So Unity or not, the average Flash guy would still have Molehill made accessible by third party 3D frameworks.

Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect
Bank of America Global Learning

_______________________

From: papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org [mailto:papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of John Grden
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 12:12 PM
To: papervision3d-developers-/***@public.gmane.org; papervision3d-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: [Papervision3D] Molehill, just became a fun mountain ;)

http://rockonflash.wordpress.com/2011/02/28/molehill-might-become-a-fun-usable-mountain/

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John Grden

2011-02-28 19:29:51 UTC

Permalink

yeah that was my point. I didn't agree that they should do that is
basically what I was saying ;)

On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 11:49 AM, Merrill, Jason <

The one thing Id complained about early on was that Molehill left 3D to
the egg-heads who loved being the only ones who could use it. As Ive said
before until you bring it to a state of usability by the masses, its
pointless and will largely be fruitless. In other words, I felt that if the
new 3D capabilities werent put in the hands of us lesser-folk through a
common interface and language, it wasnt going to go anywhere except for
demoscene reels on YouTube. Enter in Unity, and you just fixed all of that.
Its not pointless. Adobe clarified at Max 2010 that the Molehill API is
for the 3D engine/framework developers, it was never targeted at the
standard Actionscript developer. They mentioned they were possibly going to
create an API for Flash designers and developers, but for the most part,
Molehill is for the likes of third party 3D framework developers like Away3D
and Alternativa3D. With those frameworks already targeting Molehill and
building off it, the masses are not left out of Molehills capabilities to
tap into hardware acceleration. So Unity or not, the average Flash guy would
still have Molehill made accessible by third party 3D frameworks.
* *Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect**
* **Bank of America* Global Learning
_______________________
*Sent:* Monday, February 28, 2011 12:12 PM
*Subject:* [Papervision3D] Molehill, just became a fun mountain ;)
http://rockonflash.wordpress.com/2011/02/28/molehill-might-become-a-fun-usable-mountain/
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John Grden

2011-02-28 19:36:47 UTC

Permalink

and like I just replied to your comment on the blog post - if the results of
Adobe's decision resulted in my being able to use Unity as my development
tool for Flash3D - then I can't argue their decision or call it a bad one ;)

Post by John Grden
yeah that was my point. I didn't agree that they should do that is
basically what I was saying ;)
On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 11:49 AM, Merrill, Jason <

The one thing Id complained about early on was that Molehill left 3D to
the egg-heads who loved being the only ones who could use it. As Ive said
before until you bring it to a state of usability by the masses, its
pointless and will largely be fruitless. In other words, I felt that if the
new 3D capabilities werent put in the hands of us lesser-folk through a
common interface and language, it wasnt going to go anywhere except for
demoscene reels on YouTube. Enter in Unity, and you just fixed all of that.
Its not pointless. Adobe clarified at Max 2010 that the Molehill API is
for the 3D engine/framework developers, it was never targeted at the
standard Actionscript developer. They mentioned they were possibly going to
create an API for Flash designers and developers, but for the most part,
Molehill is for the likes of third party 3D framework developers like Away3D
and Alternativa3D. With those frameworks already targeting Molehill and
building off it, the masses are not left out of Molehills capabilities to
tap into hardware acceleration. So Unity or not, the average Flash guy would
still have Molehill made accessible by third party 3D frameworks.
* *Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect**
* **Bank of America* Global Learning
_______________________
*Sent:* Monday, February 28, 2011 12:12 PM
*Subject:* [Papervision3D] Molehill, just became a fun mountain ;)
http://rockonflash.wordpress.com/2011/02/28/molehill-might-become-a-fun-usable-mountain/
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John Grden

2011-02-28 19:44:22 UTC

Permalink

Update on comments about egg heads: this was more of a reaction the the
climate of discussion surround what adobe *should* do in the end with
regards to Flash3D. The business decision to leave API creation to projects
like Away3D and others makes sense. However, as a tool's based company, I
thought it made sense that they (Adobe) provide an out of the box solution
as well. Molehill is obviously very "player" centric, while investing in an
out of the box 3D API everyone could leverage would have been more inline
with a tool's based company's efforts.

again, my opinion, but I'm not at all upset when a company like Unity comes
along and provides what I was hoping for, x's 100!

Post by John Grden
and like I just replied to your comment on the blog post - if the results
of Adobe's decision resulted in my being able to use Unity as my development
tool for Flash3D - then I can't argue their decision or call it a bad one ;)

Post by John Grden
yeah that was my point. I didn't agree that they should do that is
basically what I was saying ;)
On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 11:49 AM, Merrill, Jason <

The one thing Id complained about early on was that Molehill left 3D to
the egg-heads who loved being the only ones who could use it. As Ive said
before until you bring it to a state of usability by the masses, its
pointless and will largely be fruitless. In other words, I felt that if the
new 3D capabilities werent put in the hands of us lesser-folk through a
common interface and language, it wasnt going to go anywhere except for
demoscene reels on YouTube. Enter in Unity, and you just fixed all of that.
Its not pointless. Adobe clarified at Max 2010 that the Molehill API is
for the 3D engine/framework developers, it was never targeted at the
standard Actionscript developer. They mentioned they were possibly going to
create an API for Flash designers and developers, but for the most part,
Molehill is for the likes of third party 3D framework developers like Away3D
and Alternativa3D. With those frameworks already targeting Molehill and
building off it, the masses are not left out of Molehills capabilities to
tap into hardware acceleration. So Unity or not, the average Flash guy would
still have Molehill made accessible by third party 3D frameworks.
* *Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect**
* **Bank of America* Global Learning
_______________________
*Sent:* Monday, February 28, 2011 12:12 PM
*Subject:* [Papervision3D] Molehill, just became a fun mountain ;)
http://rockonflash.wordpress.com/2011/02/28/molehill-might-become-a-fun-usable-mountain/
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taking of any action in reliance on, the information contained in or
attached to this message is prohibited.
Unless specifically indicated, this message is not an offer to sell or a
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service, an official confirmation of any transaction, or an official
statement of Sender. Subject to applicable law, Sender may intercept,
monitor, review and retain e-communications (EC) traveling through its
networks/systems and may produce any such EC to regulators, law enforcement,
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The laws of the country of each sender/recipient may impact the handling
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* Are Not a Condition to Any Banking Service or Activity * Are Not Insured
by Any Federal Government Agency. Attachments that are part of this EC may
have additional important disclosures and disclaimers, which you should
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Merrill, Jason

2011-02-28 19:58:56 UTC

Permalink

I thought it made sense that they (Adobe) provide an out of the box solution as well.

Yeah, I was able to grab some of the Adobe engineers at Max and they said they were working on some libraries - not anything as extensive as frameworks like Away or Alternativa, but something the average Joe could use easily. Their point of view is, it takes a lot of man-hours to build one of those 3D frameworks, and since there are already some great ones out there, it didn't make sense to compete. Made more sense to partner and give them what they wanted. And now we see the benefits not only with those frameworks working with Molehill, but now Unity is on board.

Exciting times ahead for the Flash platform!

Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect
Bank of America Global Learning

_______________________

From: neoriley-***@public.gmane.org [mailto:neoriley-***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of John Grden
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 2:44 PM
To: papervision3d-***@public.gmane.org
Cc: Merrill, Jason
Subject: Re: [Papervision3D] Molehill, just became a fun mountain ;)

Update on comments about egg heads: this was more of a reaction the the climate of discussion surround what adobe *should* do in the end with regards to Flash3D. The business decision to leave API creation to projects like Away3D and others makes sense. However, as a tool's based company, I thought it made sense that they (Adobe) provide an out of the box solution as well. Molehill is obviously very "player" centric, while investing in an out of the box 3D API everyone could leverage would have been more inline with a tool's based company's efforts.

again, my opinion, but I'm not at all upset when a company like Unity comes along and provides what I was hoping for, x's 100!
On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 1:36 PM, John Grden <john-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:john-***@public.gmane.org>> wrote:
and like I just replied to your comment on the blog post - if the results of Adobe's decision resulted in my being able to use Unity as my development tool for Flash3D - then I can't argue their decision or call it a bad one ;)

On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 1:29 PM, John Grden <john-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:john-***@public.gmane.org>> wrote:
yeah that was my point. I didn't agree that they should do that is basically what I was saying ;)
On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 11:49 AM, Merrill, Jason <jason.merrill-0VvZYiCTZkr6SQ/niu2adgC/***@public.gmane.org<mailto:jason.merrill-0VvZYiCTZkr6SQ/niu2adgC/***@public.gmane.org>> wrote:

"The one thing I'd complained about early on was that Molehill left 3D to the egg-heads who loved being the only ones who could use it. As I've said before - until you bring it to a state of usability by the masses, it's pointless and will largely be fruitless. In other words, I felt that if the new 3D capabilities weren't put in the hands of us lesser-folk through a common interface and language, it wasn't going to go anywhere except for demoscene reels on YouTube. Enter in Unity, and you just fixed all of that."

It's not pointless. Adobe clarified at Max 2010 that the Molehill API is for the 3D engine/framework developers, it was never targeted at the standard Actionscript developer. They mentioned they were possibly going to create an API for Flash designers and developers, but for the most part, Molehill is for the likes of third party 3D framework developers like Away3D and Alternativa3D. With those frameworks already targeting Molehill and building off it, the masses are not left out of Molehill's capabilities to tap into hardware acceleration. So Unity or not, the average Flash guy would still have Molehill made accessible by third party 3D frameworks.

Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect
Bank of America Global Learning

_______________________

From: papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org> [mailto:papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:papervision3d-bounces-***@public.gmane.org>] On Behalf Of John Grden
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 12:12 PM
To: papervision3d-developers-/***@public.gmane.org<mailto:papervision3d-developers-/***@public.gmane.org>; papervision3d-***@public.gmane.org<mailto:papervision3d-***@public.gmane.org>
Subject: [Papervision3D] Molehill, just became a fun mountain ;)

http://rockonflash.wordpress.com/2011/02/28/molehill-might-become-a-fun-usable-mountain/

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References to "Sender" are references to any subsidiary of Bank of America Corporation. Securities and Insurance Products: * Are Not FDIC Insured * Are Not Bank Guaranteed * May Lose Value * Are Not a Bank Deposit * Are Not a Condition to Any Banking Service or Activity * Are Not Insured by Any Federal Government Agency. Attachments that are part of this EC may have additional important disclosures and disclaimers, which you should read. This message is subject to terms available at the following link:
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tomsamson

2011-02-28 20:21:04 UTC

Permalink

Its ridiculous they are being rewarded for years of laziness..

I thought it made sense that they (Adobe) provide an out of the box solution as well.

Yeah, I was able to grab some of the Adobe engineers at Max and they said they were working on some libraries â not anything as extensive as frameworks like Away or Alternativa, but something the average Joe could use easily. Their point of view is, it takes a lot of man-hours to build one of those 3D frameworks, and since there are already some great ones out there, it didnât make sense to compete. Made more sense to partner and give them what they wanted. And now we see the benefits not only with those frameworks working with Molehill, but now Unity is on board.
Exciting times ahead for the Flash platform!
Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect
Bank of America Global Learning
_______________________
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 2:44 PM
Cc: Merrill, Jason
Subject: Re: [Papervision3D] Molehill, just became a fun mountain ;)
Update on comments about egg heads: this was more of a reaction the the climate of discussion surround what adobe *should* do in the end with regards to Flash3D. The business decision to leave API creation to projects like Away3D and others makes sense. However, as a tool's based company, I thought it made sense that they (Adobe) provide an out of the box solution as well. Molehill is obviously very "player" centric, while investing in an out of the box 3D API everyone could leverage would have been more inline with a tool's based company's efforts.
again, my opinion, but I'm not at all upset when a company like Unity comes along and provides what I was hoping for, x's 100!
and like I just replied to your comment on the blog post - if the results of Adobe's decision resulted in my being able to use Unity as my development tool for Flash3D - then I can't argue their decision or call it a bad one ;)
yeah that was my point. I didn't agree that they should do that is basically what I was saying ;)
âThe one thing Iâd complained about early on was that Molehill left 3D to the egg-heads who loved being the only ones who could use it. As Iâve said before â until you bring it to a state of usability by the masses, itâs pointless and will largely be fruitless. In other words, I felt that if the new 3D capabilities werenât put in the hands of us lesser-folk through a common interface and language, it wasnât going to go anywhere except for demoscene reels on YouTube. Enter in Unity, and you just fixed all of that.â
Itâs not pointless. Adobe clarified at Max 2010 that the Molehill API is for the 3D engine/framework developers, it was never targeted at the standard Actionscript developer. They mentioned they were possibly going to create an API for Flash designers and developers, but for the most part, Molehill is for the likes of third party 3D framework developers like Away3D and Alternativa3D. With those frameworks already targeting Molehill and building off it, the masses are not left out of Molehillâs capabilities to tap into hardware acceleration. So Unity or not, the average Flash guy would still have Molehill made accessible by third party 3D frameworks.
Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect
Bank of America Global Learning
_______________________
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 12:12 PM
Subject: [Papervision3D] Molehill, just became a fun mountain ;)
http://rockonflash.wordpress.com/2011/02/28/molehill-might-become-a-fun-usable-mountain/
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Merrill, Jason

2011-02-28 21:06:57 UTC

Permalink

Post by tomsamson
Its ridiculous they are being rewarded for years of laziness..

I asked someone on the Flash product team about why this took so long, and their response was the Molehill API was very very difficult to develop and took a lot of time to put together, so I donât think it was laziness. Should they have done it sooner? Sure, but business priorities are business priorities, I think your statement is a little unfair. Better late than never.

Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect
Bank of America Global Learning

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tomsamson

2011-02-28 21:11:58 UTC

Permalink

Come on, see what small companies like unity (yes, initially 4 people) did in that timespan or small groups of (initially totally unpaid for) teams like the pv3d, away3d etc ones did in all that time.
And after all that time they only got an api together, not even any editing tools (what they actually would get paid for by a large part of the designer community).

I think youŽre estimating the user base of flash a bit wrong. There are usual AS3 coders, hardcore engine coders but then, yeah, also designers who want to be able to do things visually in a clicky smoothy IDE.
WhereŽs that?
Adobe should be VERY thankful for Unity saving their butts.

Post by tomsamson
Its ridiculous they are being rewarded for years of laziness..

I asked someone on the Flash product team about why this took so long, and their response was the Molehill API was very very difficult to develop and took a lot of time to put together, so I dont think it was laziness. Should they have done it sooner? Sure, but business priorities are business priorities, I think your statement is a little unfair. Better late than never.
Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect
Bank of America Global Learning
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n***@public.gmane.org

2011-02-28 21:19:50 UTC

Permalink

"Come on" indeed. You act like Adobe hasn't added anything new to flash
player in years. Like the devs have been sitting around sipping fancy
drinks with little umbrellas in them for the past couple years.

That's just not the case at all - they have been steadily improving the
flash player every release. Just because they didn't have hardware 3d
support a year ago doesn't mean they were "lazy". They just had other
priorities.

I would rate StageVideo as far more important to the Flash Platform,
bringing true accelerated 1080p HD videos to the web. Since video is
flash's bread-and-butter I can see why Adobe would work on this kind of
thing before adding 3d support to the player.

just my 2 cents,
mark

Post by tomsamson
Come on, see what small companies like unity (yes, initially 4 people) did
in that timespan or small groups of (initially totally unpaid for) teams
like the pv3d, away3d etc ones did in all that time.
And after all that time they only got an api together, not even any
editing tools (what they actually would get paid for by a large part of
the designer community).
I think you´re estimating the user base of flash a bit wrong. There are
usual AS3 coders, hardcore engine coders but then, yeah, also designers
who want to be able to do things visually in a clicky smoothy IDE.
Where´s that?
Adobe should be VERY thankful for Unity saving their butts.

Post by Merrill, Jason

Post by tomsamson
Its ridiculous they are being rewarded for years of laziness..

I asked someone on the Flash product team about why this took so long,
and their response was the Molehill API was very very difficult to
develop and took a lot of time to put together, so I dont think it was
laziness. Should they have done it sooner? Sure, but business
priorities are business priorities, I think your statement is a little
unfair. Better late than never.
Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect
Bank of America Global Learning
This message w/attachments (message) is intended solely for the use of
the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is
privileged, confidential or proprietary. If you are not an intended
recipient, please notify the sender, and then please delete and destroy
all copies and attachments, and be advised that any review or
dissemination of, or the taking of any action in reliance on, the
information contained in or attached to this message is prohibited.
Unless specifically indicated, this message is not an offer to sell or a
solicitation of any investment products or other financial product or
service, an official confirmation of any transaction, or an official
statement of Sender. Subject to applicable law, Sender may intercept,
monitor, review and retain e-communications (EC) traveling through its
networks/systems and may produce any such EC to regulators, law
enforcement, in litigation and as required by law.
The laws of the country of each sender/recipient may impact the handling
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Not Insured by Any Federal Government Agency. Attachments that are part
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tomsamson

2011-02-28 21:36:20 UTC

Permalink

We were talking about 3d engine and editing tools here. I haven´t blamed them for messing up the video side, that is the one side next to games which has kept flash afloat and widespread for so long (Cause no matter how much advertising biz brings money, its the first reason for people to install a plugin blocker and yeah, RIAs used in intranets don´t push plugin numbers either). And yup, video is the main reason many who dislike flash in general can´t kill it off yet.
Before getting into a lengthy discussion on other sides though, let´s just agree to disagree then, cause i´ve got other things to do today =)

Post by n***@public.gmane.org
"Come on" indeed. You act like Adobe hasn't added anything new to flash
player in years. Like the devs have been sitting around sipping fancy
drinks with little umbrellas in them for the past couple years.
That's just not the case at all - they have been steadily improving the
flash player every release. Just because they didn't have hardware 3d
support a year ago doesn't mean they were "lazy". They just had other
priorities.
I would rate StageVideo as far more important to the Flash Platform,
bringing true accelerated 1080p HD videos to the web. Since video is
flash's bread-and-butter I can see why Adobe would work on this kind of
thing before adding 3d support to the player.
just my 2 cents,
mark

Post by Merrill, Jason

Post by tomsamson
Its ridiculous they are being rewarded for years of laziness..

I asked someone on the Flash product team about why this took so long,
and their response was the Molehill API was very very difficult to
develop and took a lot of time to put together, so I don’t think it was
laziness. Should they have done it sooner? Sure, but business
priorities are business priorities, I think your statement is a little
unfair. Better late than never.
Jason Merrill
Instructional Technology Architect
Bank of America Global Learning
This message w/attachments (message) is intended solely for the use of
the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is
privileged, confidential or proprietary. If you are not an intended
recipient, please notify the sender, and then please delete and destroy
all copies and attachments, and be advised that any review or
dissemination of, or the taking of any action in reliance on, the
information contained in or attached to this message is prohibited.
Unless specifically indicated, this message is not an offer to sell or a
solicitation of any investment products or other financial product or
service, an official confirmation of any transaction, or an official
statement of Sender. Subject to applicable law, Sender may intercept,
monitor, review and retain e-communications (EC) traveling through its
networks/systems and may produce any such EC to regulators, law
enforcement, in litigation and as required by law.
The laws of the country of each sender/recipient may impact the handling
of EC, and EC may be archived, supervised and produced in countries
other than the country in which you are located. This message cannot be
guaranteed to be secure or free of errors or viruses.
References to "Sender" are references to any subsidiary of Bank of
America Corporation. Securities and Insurance Products: * Are Not FDIC
Insured * Are Not Bank Guaranteed * May Lose Value * Are Not a Bank
Deposit * Are Not a Condition to Any Banking Service or Activity * Are
Not Insured by Any Federal Government Agency. Attachments that are part
of this EC may have additional important disclosures and disclaimers,
which you should read. This message is subject to terms available at the
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